# In a democracy, you tend to get the kind of law enforcement you deserve **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205 "2015-04-09T13:35:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/1 "2015-04-09T13:35:47Z")
Police officers are getting mixed signals from American society. Middle and upper class Americans have the choice of trying to ameliorate the income/wealth gap, or battle its consequences. High incarceration rate and demonization of the poor are rapidly creating a permanent underclass, from which we expect protection. There is no conscious national conspiracy of violence towards the disadvantaged, but the result is no if different than if there were. Police are tasked with protecting the few from the many. If they tend to shoot more black males, it is because they wear the face of our fears. We want police officers to keep Those People in check, and then wring our hands when violence is their method. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/2 "2015-04-09T13:39:29Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > Police officers are getting mixed signals from American society. > Middle and upper class Americans have the choice of trying to ameliorate the income/wealth gap, or battle its consequences. High incarceration rate and demonization of the poor are rapidly creating a permanent underclass, from which we expect protection. There is no conscious national conspiracy of violence towards the disadvantaged, but the result is no if different than if there were. Police are tasked with protecting the few from the many. If they tend to shoot more black males, it is because they wear the face of our fears. > We want police officers to keep Those People in check, and then wring our hands when violence is their method. Ok. so, what’s the solution? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/3 "2015-04-09T13:49:23Z")
The OP is correct. With a gradual change in attitudes we may be on the way to a solution in another 50 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/4 "2015-04-09T13:52:30Z")
Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/5 "2015-04-09T13:52:42Z")
The solution has to address the income gap, but I didn’t want this to become a Great Debate (or Pit) thread about politics. My point is, police are responding to our unspoken but unmistakable desire for social control. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/6 "2015-04-09T13:55:48Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? Keep going like this and I’ll have enough material for a really brutal Pitting. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/7 "2015-04-09T13:55:40Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? That’s a funding issue. We can’t build jails fast enough to keep up with arrests. If there was actual equal opportunity and resources for all Americans, plus a well-funded mental health apparatus, I am sure the crime rate would drop. Edit: Obviously more components than funding, but our jails have become the primary way of handling addiction and mental health problems. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/8 "2015-04-09T14:23:59Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? Can you quantify this a bit? Currently crime is at an all time low and we are incarcerating a record amount of our population. Hell, we incarcerate 4 times more people than China and we have 1/6th of their population. I think we have two problems: 1. police departments are increasingly funding themselves with fines and asset forfeiture. They have been driven to this because funding cuts due to decreased taxes and the burdens on states from overbuilt infrastructure and pension liabilities. 2. The privatization of prisons and fine collection services has introduced perverse incentives as companies now have a profit motive to lock up or otherwise persecute (prosecute!) petty criminals. To many poor, black Americans, the police are not there to serve and protect, they are there to shake down the neighborhood. It’s a protection racket the likes of which the mafia never dreamed of implementing in their wildest fantasy. ETA: I do agree that the jails and police are now our de facto mental health system. Recreating a system to actually treat people and keep them off the streets would go a long way toward reducing some crimes and some police brutality. It would also be more effective and probably cheaper to boot. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/9 "2015-04-09T14:38:50Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > 1. police departments are increasingly funding themselves with fines and asset forfeiture. They have been driven to this because funding cuts due to decreased taxes and the burdens on states from overbuilt infrastructure and pension liabilities… Plus, we can vote on taxes for police and other local services. Often against. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/10 "2015-04-09T14:53:23Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? Given that America’s incarceration rates are the highest in the world, I’m going to say no. You might be mistaking a line from a Dirty Harry movie with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/11 "2015-04-09T15:01:03Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > My point is, police are responding to our unspoken but unmistakable desire for social control. Very true. What leftists don’t understand would fill a book, but mostly what they don’t understand that enabling more true and real democracy leads to votes for oppressive right-wing social policies. The right-wing free-market anti-social leaders aren’t deceiving people into choosing them: they are responding to ordinary people’s need to have other people suffer. > [@kopek](#): > > Is it that or is it more frustration on the part of police that criminals of all races seem to get back on the street as quickly as the arresting officers do? It would seem simpler for the authorities to graduate poor young men — ‘_of all race_s’ — straight into life sentences upon leaving school. That way you get the beneficial effects of mass incarceration without having to endure the alleged crimes now posited to get them there now. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/12 "2015-04-09T16:13:50Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Keep going like this and I’ll have enough material for a really brutal Pitting. Gosh, wouldn’t that be awful? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/13 "2015-04-09T16:35:53Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > We want police officers to keep Those People in check Who’s this “we” you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/14 "2015-04-09T16:52:19Z")
The OP’s sentiments are garbage. Except for the underclass the poor are as law-abiding as everyone else. I suggest the OP ask poor victims of violent crime as to how they feel the offenders should be dealt with: I think overwhelmingly he would find the view that they should be locked up for long periods of time. (Conversely it is the upper middle class liberals who tend to think that these lower class predators should be dealt with lightly). ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/15 "2015-04-09T16:57:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s this “we” you’re talking about? The American public. We allow this to happen. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/16 "2015-04-09T16:58:38Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > The OP’s sentiments are garbage. Except for the underclass the poor are as law-abiding as everyone else. I suggest the OP ask poor victims of violent crime as to how they feel the offenders should be dealt with: I think overwhelmingly he would find the view that they should be locked up for long periods of time. (Conversely it is the upper middle class liberals who tend to think that these lower class predators should be dealt with lightly). I think you’re responding to a post I didn’t make. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/17 "2015-04-09T17:00:48Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Except for the underclass the poor are as law-abiding as everyone else. Well, I don’t know about that - low SES is associated with higher crime rates, but that doesn’t really affect your point (with which I agree) - poor criminals mostly vicitimize other poor people. > [@](#): > > I suggest the OP ask poor victims of violent crime as to how they feel the offenders should be dealt with: I think overwhelmingly he would find the view that they should be locked up for long periods of time. (Conversely it is the upper middle class liberals who tend to think that these lower class predators should be dealt with lightly). Also true. There is an element of truth in this - > [@](#): > > A liberal is a conservative who has been indicted. A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/18 "2015-04-09T17:28:22Z")
PastTense - could you reference which of the points I raised you are specifically disputing? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/19 "2015-04-09T18:05:41Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > The OP’s sentiments are garbage. Except for the underclass the poor are as law-abiding as everyone else. I suggest the OP ask poor victims of violent crime as to how they feel the offenders should be dealt with: I think overwhelmingly he would find the view that they should be locked up for long periods of time. (Conversely it is the upper middle class liberals who tend to think that these lower class predators should be dealt with lightly). Do you have any evidence for these assertions? From what I’ve read, the poor tend to be very much opposed to the war on drugs, for example, probably because so many of them are the ones who get locked up. I haven’t seen anything to suggest that the poor are more prone to support harsher punishments. In DC, for example, the poorer the neighborhood, the more likely that the people have a negative attitude towards the police ([Public Opinion On Policing And Job Availability Is Divided By The River | DCist](http://dcist.com/2015/04/public_opinion_on_policing_public_s.php)). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205/20 "2015-04-09T18:38:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s this “we” you’re talking about? He doesn’t mean we, he means those other people. He is obviously building a strawman and then trying to use “we” to obscure that point. Crime is not an effect of income inequality, they have almost nothing to do with each other. Income inequality was low during the sixties when the crime rate tripled. Income inequality has been going up for decades while the crime rate has been falling for almost 25 years. Most crime happens to people in poor neighborhoods and is committed by people in poor neighborhoods. The police are there to protect the peaceful from the violent criminals who are trying to hurt them. Life is hard enough for poor people without them being preyed on by criminals. Police are trying to stop that and they falling crime rates seem to indicate they are doing a good job. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-democracy-you-tend-to-get-the-kind-of-law-enforcement-you-deserve/717205.md?page=2)