# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/321 "2011-10-25T04:56:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Still does not reach the level of damage sneezing in public does. Sneezing is an involuntary act of a biological function, where the infected might not even be _aware_ he/she has been infected up to that point. If you’re so worried about the flu, get a flu shot or don’t leave your home. This counter-argument isn’t even in the same zip code as to what the debate here is. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/322 "2011-10-25T04:57:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > However, as you keep failing to acknowledge, enforcing personal hygiene in public is an impossible task, one which government regulation could never hope to accomplish, and therefore it does not even try. Huh? Singapore certainly does a great job with chewing gum, why not take their example. Hey, you could mandate wearing face masks during flu season, I am sure that would cut down on those flu deaths. > [@](#): > > You keep giving this example, not realizing it shows that government does not get involved in your personal life if by doing so it would be too intrusive. Even if the potential benefit to the public is high, in this particular case, your “freedom” to not be overly regulated in public has been deemed to be higher. The government is being “libertarian” in this case! No, it shows the arbitrariness of the rules. 40,000 deaths that could be prevented by a simple law requiring everyone wear masks. The government instituted seat belts in order to reduce traffic fatalities by a much smaller number. So - why not masks? Not even all the time - just during the flu season. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/323 "2011-10-25T05:30:33Z")
1. because the public would never vote for such an outlandish, impractical law. Flu shots I could see, but face masks are rediculous. 2. Seatbelts are, unobtrusive, easy to use, standard on all vehicles, and just common sense when you’re using a technology (there’s that word again) that can turn a vehicle into a random projectile the weight of a rhino and the momentum of a wrecking ball on a public road. 3. Antibiotics are an applied technology of chemistry upon which misuse would take ignorance and/or going out of your way for absolutely no benefit, yet will still add upon increasing the very real threat of super-resistant strains of bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/324 "2011-10-25T05:43:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? Singapore certainly does a great job with chewing gum, why not take their example. Hey, you could mandate wearing face masks during flu season, I am sure that would cut down on those flu deaths. > > No, it shows the arbitrariness of the rules. 40,000 deaths that could be prevented by a simple law requiring everyone wear masks. The government instituted seat belts in order to reduce traffic fatalities by a much smaller number. So - why not masks? Not even all the time - just during the flu season. Masks would not prevent 40k deaths/year. We cannot eliminate influenza by the use of masks. Not possible. Requiring them would be unenforceable. People would not stand for it. The government knows that it would not work. It would be a lot of effort and aggravation for very little return. The fact that we don’t do this shows that government does not set up foolish regulations and rules that are unenforceable and of limited/no use. Regulations that prevent you from getting a drug that will do you no benefit, but will harm others make sense. Regulations that will force you do buy, and wear an appliance that will do limited public good make no sense. If you really don’t see this, and are not simply playing devil’s advocate, then I think we’re done here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/325 "2011-10-25T05:59:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Masks would not prevent 40k deaths/year. We cannot eliminate influenza by the use of masks. Not possible. They would reduce them by half at least if not more. You’re willing to kill 20k people a year to preserve your precious freedom to walk around without a mask? > [@](#): > > Requiring them would be unenforceable. People would not stand for it. The government knows that it would not work. It would be a lot of effort and aggravation for very little return. ROTFLMAO. So in principle it’s ok, but it is too noticeable and intrusive a grab of freedom so it won’t work. Gotcha. And 20K deaths is “little return”? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/326 "2011-10-25T06:22:37Z")
You’re completely free to wear a mask on your own. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/327 "2011-10-25T12:08:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The contract is a very definite document. What’s not in the contract does not have to be obeyed. And both parties have to agree to amend it. > > I as a libertarian would very much encourage enclaves that are run (again, only if on voluntary contractual basis) using whatever political system they adopt. Let the thousand flowers bloom, or stars shine or whatever. What’s in the law a is definitive document too. What’s not banned is legal as well, and it can be changed if most parties want too. You do realize there’s thousands of cities with their own city governments, que no? However one main difference is > [@](#): > > The government would not get involved. If there was a breach of contract, then the employee could sue. If companies wanted to attract employees, the anti-sexual-harassment clauses would be part of the contract. So you’re saying in Libertaria coercing someone into sex against their will can be legal? Nice to know libertarians support rape. Sick evil fucks. No town I know of would legalize rape. So other than rape, you already have that now. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/328 "2011-10-25T13:53:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They would reduce them by half at least if not more. You’re willing to kill 20k people a year to preserve your precious freedom to walk around without a mask? No, this is a “fact” you’ve just made up. It has no basis in reality. It is unsupported by any evidence. It is wrong. I’m having trouble grasping the logic of your argument here. You seem to be saying that the government does not have regulations about what we should wear in public when we sneeze, and that this is functionally equivalent to regulations that forbid you from purchasing and taking antibiotics whenever you feel like it, for no medical purpose. Because these two situations are identical, this means that regulations as a whole are arbitrary and capricious, and prove that a libertarian government would be much better That about it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/329 "2011-10-25T14:45:08Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So you’re saying in Libertaria coercing someone into sex against their will can be legal? Initiation of force is not legal in Libertaria. “Sexual harassment” isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/330 "2011-10-25T14:48:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No, this is a “fact” you’ve just made up. It has no basis in reality. It is unsupported by any evidence. It is wrong. It is fully supported by evidence. The main spread vector of flu is through people sneezing, coughing, and not washing their hands after doing that. Legislating mandatory use of masks during flu season would greatly reduce the spread of flu, saving lives. And no, it is not “identical” to restricting access to antibiotics. No two situations are identical. But it is similar - legislation that would restrict freedom in return for public health improvement. Except the mask thing would save more lives. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/331 "2011-10-25T15:19:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is fully supported by evidence. The main spread vector of flu is through people sneezing, coughing, and not washing their hands after doing that. Legislating mandatory use of masks during flu season would greatly reduce the spread of flu, saving lives. > > And no, it is not “identical” to restricting access to antibiotics. No two situations are identical. But it is similar - legislation that would restrict freedom in return for public health improvement. Except the mask thing would save more lives. This isn’t about spreading flu-this is about making it deadlier for everybody through the misuse of medicine by some. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/332 "2011-10-25T15:27:13Z")
The flu doesn’t get deadlier due to misuse of antibiotics. Influenza is a virus. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/333 "2011-10-25T15:35:21Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > The flu doesn’t get deadlier due to misuse of antibiotics. Influenza is a virus. You are of course correct. That’s what I get for typing while being rushed. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/334 "2011-10-25T15:56:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is fully supported by evidence. The main spread vector of flu is through people sneezing, coughing, and not washing their hands after doing that. Legislating mandatory use of masks during flu season would greatly reduce the spread of flu, saving lives. No, it is [not supported by evidence.](http://www.flu.gov/vaccine/maskguidance.html) > [@](#): > > Information on the use of facemasks and respirators for the control of pandemic influenza in community settings is extremely limited. Thus, it is difficult to assess their potential effectiveness in controlling influenza in these settings. > [@](#): > > No single action will provide complete protection, but an approach combining the following steps may help decrease the likelihood of infection: handwashing, isolation and treatment with antiviral medications of persons with confirmed or probable influenza, voluntary home quarantine of members of households with confirmed or probable influenza cases, reduction of unnecessary social contacts, and avoidance whenever possible of crowded or congested social settings. Your figure of 50% reduction in death rate from influenza if masks were mandated is completely fabricated and false. You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own set of facts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/335 "2011-10-25T16:04:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No, it is [not supported by evidence.](http://www.flu.gov/vaccine/maskguidance.html) “Facemasks should be considered for use by individuals who enter crowded settings, both to protect their nose and mouth from other people’s coughs and to reduce the wearers’ likelihood of coughing on others;” Thanks for proving me right. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/336 "2011-10-25T16:13:53Z")
In addition: > **[Interim Guidance for the Use of Masks to Control Seasonal Influenza Virus...](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm)** > > Role of masks for controlling influenza when suboptimal immunization of the public could increase the frequency of influenza infection - CDC Human influenza is transmitted from person to person primarily via virus-laden large droplets (particles \>5 µm in diameter) that are generated when infected persons cough or sneeze; these large droplets can then be directly deposited onto the mucosal surfaces of the upper respiratory tract of susceptible persons who are near (i.e., within 3 feet) the droplet source. Transmission also may occur through direct and indirect contact with infectious respiratory secretions. The use of surgical or procedure masks by infectious patients may help contain their respiratory secretions and limit exposure to others. Likewise, when a patient is not wearing a mask, as when in an isolation room, having health-care personnel mask for close contact with the patient may prevent nose and mouth contact with respiratory droplets. ============================= Just because there were no studies conducted doesn’t mean you throw logic out of the window. The masks prevent contact with “virus-laden large droplets… generated when infected persons cough or sneeze”. Since that’s the mode of transmission of the flu … there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/337 "2011-10-25T16:15:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Facemasks should be considered for use by individuals who enter crowded settings, both to protect their nose and mouth from other people’s coughs and to reduce the wearers’ likelihood of coughing on others;” > > Thanks for proving me right. So? Wear a mask then. At least doing so won’t create some super virus that’ll wipe out two or three times as many people. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/338 "2011-10-25T16:16:17Z")
If anyone needs evidence that Libertarianism is a religion, just read this thread. They have to resort to the same puerile arguments that religious people do to justify their belief in lieu of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/339 "2011-10-25T16:29:05Z")
It’s convinced me that libertarianism should never be enacted because of libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/340 "2011-10-25T16:37:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Facemasks should be considered for use by individuals who enter crowded settings, both to protect their nose and mouth from other people’s coughs and to reduce the wearers’ likelihood of coughing on others;” > > Thanks for proving me right. Ya, OK :rolleyes: Did you notice that this advice was only _during an Influenza Pandemic_? Do you know what a pandemic is? Please provide a cite that shows that wearing of facemasks by infected persons would reduce the death rate of influenza by 50%. Alternatively, retract your foolish statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=18)