# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/481 "2011-10-26T20:06:32Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > How is “have sex with me or you’re fired” not an initiation of force? You do know there’s plenty of ways to coerce someone besides physical threats, right? When you can turn around and walk out, it’s not “force”. > [@](#): > > And why is it the “government’s job is prevent/punish crimes that involve initiation of force” in the first place? If I’m stronger and bigger than other people should I be able to take their stuff? No. That would be taking it by force. If you’re asking why the “initiation of force” is taboo - that’s because that’s what libertarianism is based on. You are asking about the libertarian POV, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/482 "2011-10-26T20:06:40Z")
Like I said, I’m ignoring the “mafia” argument, since I’ve encountered it before and I’ve learned over the years that there’s not any point with continuing that line of discussion. > [@Terr](#): > > The government’s job is prevent/punish crimes that involve initiation of force. If I physically force someone to have sex with me, that’s the crime and it should be illegal. If I negotiate with someone to have sex with me in return for some kind of compensation, that’s prostitution and should not be illegal. Economic coercion is a form of force. As an employer, you are in a position of power and authority over a person in your employ or a person seeking employment, and the imbalance of power in that situation creates a coercive atmosphere in which true negotiation is not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/483 "2011-10-26T20:07:37Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Like I said, I’m ignoring the “mafia” argument, since I’ve encountered it before and I’ve learned over the years that there’s not any point with continuing that line of discussion. If you’re ignoring arguments, I can ignore your posts. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/484 "2011-10-26T20:08:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you can turn around and walk out, it’s not “force”. > No. That would be taking it by force. > > If you’re asking why the “initiation of force” is taboo - that’s because that’s what libertarianism is based on. You are asking about the libertarian POV, right? Good job completely avoiding the point of my post, there. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/485 "2011-10-26T20:10:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re ignoring arguments, I can ignore your posts. Feel free, but do keep in mind that the mafia argument is only one of several points being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/486 "2011-10-26T20:10:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Good job completely avoiding the point of my post, there. Again, you’re asking about the libertarian POV. The libertarian POV is that outside of “initiation of force” all other actions should be allowed. And no, libertarians do not twist the language into pretzels in order to define bullshit terms like “economic force” etc. You may as well say that if someone is uncommonly persuasive, he’s applying “verbal force”. Or if someone is extraordinarily charismatic and gets a lot of tail, that’s a form of rape because he is applying “charisma force”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/487 "2011-10-26T20:11:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah good. Mafia-style-protection racket is not bad policy. I am sure some Mafia members love their children. Bad policy? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/488 "2011-10-26T20:14:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am sure some Mafia members love their children. Bad policy? We’re not talking about personal habits of Mafia members. We’re talking about the mafia’s operational principles. If you concur that the non-libertarian government operates on the same principles that mafia does, then I can only agree. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/489 "2011-10-26T20:15:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you’re asking about the libertarian POV. The libertarian POV is that outside of “initiation of force” all other actions should be allowed. And no, libertarians do not twist the language into pretzels in order to define bullshit terms like “economic force” etc. You may as well say that if someone is uncommonly persuasive, he’s applying “verbal force”. Or if someone is extraordinarily charismatic and gets a lot of tail, that’s a form of rape because he is applying “charisma force”. Exploitation of economic need is a form of coercion. So you’re saying that the only definition of “force” or coercion that libertarians recognize is physical force? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/490 "2011-10-26T20:17:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you’re asking about the libertarian POV. The libertarian POV is that outside of “initiation of force” all other actions should be allowed. And no, libertarians do not twist the language into pretzels in order to define bullshit terms like “economic force” etc. You may as well say that if someone is uncommonly persuasive, he’s applying “verbal force”. Yes, I’m asking about the libertarian POV. Why have you chosen to draw the line at initiation of force and why is it unthinkable to draw it anywhere else? In other words, why is it that we need the government to take away Big Bubba’s right to earn a living robbing people but not guarantee Lil’ Suzie’s right to go to school and have any chance in life even though her parents are too poor to pay for it? And you’re response can’t be “there’s no right to education” as that’s the exact point I’m trying to get you to address: All rights are negotiated. Why should the rest of us accept the arbitrary line you’ve drawn as some unquestionable absolute? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/491 "2011-10-26T20:20:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > We’re not talking about personal habits of Mafia members. We’re talking about the mafia’s operational principles. If you concur that the non-libertarian government operates on the same principles that mafia does, then I can only agree. If you think a society that is not compelled to ask your personal permission for everything it does is equivalent to the Mafia, then, yes; I prefer the Mafia to Libertopia. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/492 "2011-10-26T20:24:38Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > that’s the exact point I’m trying to get you to address: All rights are negotiated. That’s where we differ. I (and quite a few other people, including the founders of the United States) think that rights are non-negotiable. As in “inalienable”. No one can take away the man’s rights except the man himself, by his own decision. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/493 "2011-10-26T20:25:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > yes; I prefer the Mafia to Libertopia. Cool. That’s what you get. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/494 "2011-10-26T20:27:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s where we differ. I (and quite a few other people, including the founders of the United States) think that rights are non-negotiable. As in “inalienable”. They believed that CERTAIN rights were “inalienable.” Not ALL rights. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/495 "2011-10-26T20:33:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s where we differ. I (and quite a few other people, including the founders of the United States) think that rights are non-negotiable. As in “inalienable”. First, don’t bother trying to invoke the FF. The world was very different then. You can’t just transpose some subset of things they said onto the modern world and expect it to hold up as a belief system. And you’re wrong. No rights exist without societal consensus. And we have a mechanism for achieving consensus: it’s called democracy. Your POV lost, so now you’re trying to claim that any rights beyond the ones you’re arbitrarily labeled as non-negotiable and inalienable are some overreaching of government authority. By definition they can’t be, as the government is of, by, and for the people. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/496 "2011-10-26T20:49:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. That’s what you get. And you as well. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/497 "2011-10-26T20:49:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > First, don’t bother trying to invoke the FF. The world was very different then. The world was different. People were not. When we’re talking “rights” we’re talking people, not technology. > [@](#): > > And you’re wrong. No rights exist without societal consensus. I completely disagree. Rights (if they are rights, and not just societal handouts) exist with no need for “consensus”. My right to life exists outside of it. My right to ownership of my body exists outside of it. The societal “consensus” can violate that right, but it cannot grant it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/498 "2011-10-26T20:51:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And you as well. Deal with it. I love it. All the “in a libertarian society…” threads always come to this: yes, we are a mafia-like government, live with it. Thank you for the great insight. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/499 "2011-10-26T20:55:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I completely disagree. Rights (if they are rights, and not just societal handouts) exist with no need for “consensus”. My right to life exists outside of it. My right to ownership of my body exists outside of it. The societal “consensus” can violate that right, but it cannot grant it. So then why do we need the government to protect your right to life? If it exists without the need for consensus, then why would it ever get violated? For that to happen there would have to be someone who didn’t agree that it’s a right. If it’s non-negotiable than it’s a law of nature, like gravity. We don’t need the government to enforce the law of gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/500 "2011-10-26T20:55:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I love it. All the “in a libertarian society…” threads always come to this: yes, we are a mafia-like government, live with it. I never said I believe we have a mafia-like government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=26)