# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/501 "2011-10-26T20:57:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I love it. All the “in a libertarian society…” threads always come to this: yes, we are a mafia-like government, live with it. > > Thank you for the great insight. Can you give an example of a government that wouldn’t be “mafia-like”, under your definition? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/502 "2011-10-26T21:01:35Z")
It started [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14398048&postcount=477), where **Terr said** the government was like the mafia by forcing him to pay for services he didn’t personally approve of. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/503 "2011-10-26T21:02:35Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So then why do we need the government to protect your right to life? If it exists without the need for consensus, then why would it ever get violated? For that to happen there would have to be someone who didn’t agree that it’s a right. If it’s non-negotiable than it’s a law of nature, like gravity. We don’t need the government to enforce the law of gravity. “Protecting the right” is not the same as “granting the right”. The right exists. You may protect it or violate it, but it exists without your consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/504 "2011-10-26T21:03:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I never said I believe we have a mafia-like government. Nah. It only operates using mafia-like policies. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/505 "2011-10-26T21:05:41Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Can you give an example of a government that wouldn’t be “mafia-like”, under your definition? It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides. Instead of providing the service, then extorting money from me to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/506 "2011-10-26T21:05:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah. It only operates using mafia-like policies. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/507 "2011-10-26T21:06:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Protecting the right” is not the same as “granting the right”. The right exists. You may protect it or violate it, but it exists without your consensus. What brought these rights into existence? Are these rights for everyone, or just Americans? If everyone, why only humans? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/508 "2011-10-26T21:08:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What brought these rights into existence? The universe. Or “the Creator”. Or God. Your choice. > [@](#): > > Are these rights for everyone, or just Americans? If everyone, why only humans? Every sentient being. So far, that’s limited to humans. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/509 "2011-10-26T21:09:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Every sentient being. So far, that’s limited to humans. How do you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/510 "2011-10-26T21:12:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How do you know that? Ok. “So far, it is limited to humans, AFAIK.” If you would like to offer some kind of proof of non-human sentience, be my guest. If I am convinced, I will extend the rights to those beings as well. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/511 "2011-10-26T21:12:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It started [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14398048&postcount=477), where **Terr said** the government was like the mafia by forcing him to pay for services he didn’t personally approve of. Well, since I’m wealthy, I can afford my own private security to protect my stuff, and if someone did steal my stuff, I could track him down and get it back, plus compensation, and have my thugs punish him for his wrong doing. So why should I be forced to pay for police and courts? I don’t need them and get no benefit from them. Sure, not everyone is in the same position as me, but that’s their own fault. Why should I be forced to pay for their laziness? Is that what **Terr** means by “mafia-style” government? > [@Terr](#): > > “Protecting the right” is not the same as “granting the right”. The right exists. You may protect it or violate it, but it exists without your consensus. How does it exist? Can it even exist in any meaningful sense without protection? If simply claiming you have a right to life won’t prevent another from taking it, what good is it? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/512 "2011-10-26T21:13:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides. Instead of providing the service, then extorting money from me to pay for it. You mean, like democracy, where people vote on what the government does? And you’re free to leave if you don’t like it? That sounds a lot like the government we have. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/513 "2011-10-26T21:17:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Well, since I’m wealthy, I can afford my own private security to protect my stuff, and if someone did steal my stuff, I could track him down and get it back, plus compensation, and have my thugs punish him for his wrong doing. So why should I be forced to pay for police and courts? I don’t need them and get no benefit from them. Sure, not everyone is in the same position as me, but that’s their own fault. Why should I be forced to pay for their laziness? > > Is that what **Terr** means by “mafia-style” government? Since you didn’t describe any “government” in that paragraph, no, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > How does it exist? Can it even exist in any meaningful sense without protection? If simply claiming you have a right to life won’t prevent another from taking it, what good is it? It exists, as in “it exists”. How do I exist? How do you exist? If I can kill you at any time, can you claim that you exist? I can protect my rights myself, or I can get together with a group of like-minded people and we will protect those rights together. Or I can support a government that protects those rights. But if it fails, or if the group fails, the final responsibility is mine to protect those rights. That’s the difference between those rights and the “granted rights” that do not exist without the grantor. Like the “right to education”. Look at the above paragraph and try to apply it to that so-called “right”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/514 "2011-10-26T21:19:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > You mean, like democracy, where people vote on what the government does? And you’re free to leave if you don’t like it? That sounds a lot like the government we have. Which part of “It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides.” was not clear? Just because you voted for it doesn’t mean that I have to pay for it. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/515 "2011-10-26T21:20:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you would like to offer some kind of proof of non-human sentience, be my guest. If I am convinced, I will extend the rights to those beings as well. So you reserve the power to decide which animals get rights, in the absence of evidence? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/516 "2011-10-26T21:26:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since you didn’t describe any “government” in that paragraph, no, it isn’t. Police and courts aren’t government? > [@Terr](#): > > It exists, as in “it exists”. How do I exist? How do you exist? If I can kill you at any time, can you claim that you exist? > > I can protect my rights myself, or I can get together with a group of like-minded people and we will protect those rights together. Or I can support a government that protects those rights. But if it fails, or if the group fails, the final responsibility is mine to protect those rights. > > That’s the difference between those rights and the “granted rights” that do not exist without the grantor. Like the “right to education”. Look at the above paragraph and try to apply it to that so-called “right”. Those rights are granted though. Your right to life is granted by everyone who agrees not to kill you. Your right to property is granted by everyone who agrees not to steal your stuff. We’ve agreed those are rights and codified them as societal conventions and created governments to enforce them. They do not come from the universe, or god, or whatever. The only exist because we’ve agreed they exist. Along the same lines, if we agree that there’s a right to education and create a system that provides universal education, then it exists. If society didn’t provide it, then responsibility falls to the individual and/or their parents, same as the rights that you consider natural. There’s no difference. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/517 "2011-10-26T21:28:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which part of “It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides.” was not clear? > > Just because you voted for it doesn’t mean that I have to pay for it. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is? What part of “you’re free to leave” was not clear? You’re choosing to stay, so you’re paying for it voluntarily. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/518 "2011-10-26T21:30:09Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Those rights are granted though. Your right to life is granted by everyone who agrees not to kill you. No it isn’t. That’s what self-defense is for. > [@](#): > > Your right to property is granted by everyone who agrees not to steal your stuff. No it isn’t. That’s what shooting the trespassers is for. > [@](#): > > The only exist because we’ve agreed they exist. As I pointed out, I disagree. And since these concepts are kind of axiomatic, it is pretty silly to argue about the validity of systems grown out of the axioms if you cannot agree on the axioms. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/519 "2011-10-26T21:31:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No it isn’t. That’s what self-defense is for. So people who are unable to defend themselves have no right to life? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/520 "2011-10-26T21:32:57Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > What part of “you’re free to leave” was not clear? The part where I own property here and there is no contract that I signed that says you can evict me if I don’t agree. > [@](#): > > You’re choosing to stay, so you’re paying for it voluntarily. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is? “We protect the neighborhood. Because of us, your store is not burglarized or burned down, and no one breaks your knees or kidnaps your children or rapes your wife. So fork over the protection money. You’re choosing to stay, so you’re paying for it voluntarily.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=27)