# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/521 "2011-10-26T21:34:01Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So people who are unable to defend themselves have no right to life? There is no “unable”. There is “unwilling”. And even those do have the right to life, but they are allowing others to violate it. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/522 "2011-10-26T21:34:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The part where I own property here and there is no contract that I signed that says you can evict me if I don’t agree. You were forced to buy property here? And you’re not allowed to sell it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/523 "2011-10-26T21:35:05Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > You were forced to buy property here? And you’re not allowed to sell it? Again, which part of “no signed contract” was unclear? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/524 "2011-10-26T21:36:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is no “unable”. There is “unwilling”. And even those do have the right to life, but they are allowing others to violate it. Oh please. Can babies defend themselves? Quadriplegics? Individuals against large groups? Weaker people against stronger people? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/525 "2011-10-26T21:37:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The part where I own property here and there is no contract that I signed that says you can evict me if I don’t agree. Sure there is; it’s called the Constitution. Article 1, Section 8. Congress has the power to levy taxes. If you refuse to pay, you are violating the law. That has consequences. However, you may leave any time you wish. Besides, you can leave your property behind, if living in a tyranny is so objectionable. Surely, freedom is worth more than property? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/526 "2011-10-26T21:40:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, which part of “no signed contract” was unclear? I never signed a contract that I couldn’t steal your stuff, so that’s ok, right? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/527 "2011-10-26T22:06:25Z")
If I just slip your camera and iphone out of your bag while your back is turned, that should be OK too. I didn’t use any force. No force whatsoever. I just gently, oh so gently picked them up with my thumb and forefinger. I did not touch you, or even look at you. I did not break anything of yours to get your stuff. Turning your back to me gave me implicit permission to take your stuff.; nobody forced you to turn your back to me. And I didn’t sign a contract with you promising not to take your stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/528 "2011-10-26T22:47:09Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Oh please. Can babies defend themselves? Quadriplegics? Individuals against large groups? Weaker people against stronger people? Come on. Babies - no. Babies are not fully formed people and a lot of things don’t apply to them, but do apply to people who are responsible for them. Individuals against large groups? Yes - organize into a group. “Weaker people against stronger people?” - guns are a great equalizer. Quadriplegics? I guess that’s the only argument you have left. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/529 "2011-10-26T22:48:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Sure there is; it’s called the Constitution. Article 1, Section 8. Congress has the power to levy taxes. That has nothing to do with income taxes. You are probably trying to refer to the 16th amendment. > [@](#): > > If you refuse to pay, you are violating the law. That has consequences. However, you may leave any time you wish. Ah. Just like with the mafia. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/530 "2011-10-26T22:49:30Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I never signed a contract that I couldn’t steal your stuff, so that’s ok, right? No, that would be a violation of my right to property. See it’s that pesky “inalienable rights” issue that you’re still having a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/531 "2011-10-26T22:50:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If I just slip your camera and iphone out of your bag while your back is turned, that should be OK too. I didn’t use any force. No force whatsoever. You violated my property rights. You took something I own without my permission. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/532 "2011-10-26T22:51:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Babies - no. Babies are not fully formed people and a lot of things don’t apply to them, but do apply to people who are responsible for them. Individuals against large groups? Yes - organize into a group. “Weaker people against stronger people?” - guns are a great equalizer. > > Quadriplegics? I guess that’s the only argument you have left. What if they form an even larger group? Or get bigger guns? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/533 "2011-10-26T22:53:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You violated my property rights. You took something I own without my permission. But we never signed a contract recognizing those rights. Why is your pontifications about property rights any different than the law? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/534 "2011-10-26T22:53:33Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > What if they form an even larger group? Or get bigger guns? You know the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/535 "2011-10-26T22:54:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But we never signed a contract recognizing those rights. Why is your pontifications about property rights any different than state law? Those rights are axiomatic. Right to life, right to ownership of your own body, right to property… Rights do not need a contract. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/536 "2011-10-26T22:56:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, that would be a violation of my right to property. See it’s that pesky “inalienable rights” issue that you’re still having a problem with. I never agreed to that right. Why should I be forced to abide by it just because I was born into a society that accepts it? It’s not my fault others aren’t good at protecting their stuff. Like you said “There is no “unable”. There is “unwilling”.” If you’re unwilling to defend your stuff, why should you be able to call on Big Daddy government to take care of it for you? And why should I be forced to pay for that protection? I can take care of myself, I don’t need police or courts. Maybe when I was younger I benefited from it, but I never agreed to it. I never signed a contract saying I’d pay for it. That’s mafia-like extortion. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/537 "2011-10-26T22:56:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah. Just like with the mafia. I see you are misinformed about the Mafia as well. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/538 "2011-10-26T22:57:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know the answer. Yes. Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/539 "2011-10-26T22:57:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Those rights are axiomatic. Right to life, right to ownership of your own body, right to property… Rights do not need a contract. There is a cosmic right to property? Says who? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/540 "2011-10-26T23:02:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Those rights are axiomatic. Right to life, right to ownership of your own body, right to property… Rights do not need a contract. I can posit rights too. There’s a right not to have your boss make you choose between rape or your family starving. There’s a right to healthcare, basic food, shelter, and education. Those rights are a duty of your society to provide, should you be unable to provide them for yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=28)