# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/541 "2011-10-26T23:04:32Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I never agreed to that right. Why should I be forced to abide by it just because I was born into a society that accepts it? You don’t have to abide by it. You may not survive long though. > [@](#): > > I can take care of myself, I don’t need police or courts. In a libertarian society, you don’t have to use them. As I said, you may not survive long though. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/542 "2011-10-26T23:05:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There is a cosmic right to property? Says who? Again, for the Nth time - you’re in the “In a libertarian society…” thread. In a libertarian society, there is a “cosmic right to property”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/543 "2011-10-26T23:06:45Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I can posit rights too. There’s a right not to have your boss make you choose between rape or your family starving. There’s a right to healthcare, basic food, shelter, and education. > > Those rights are a duty of your society to provide, should you be unable to provide them for yourself. Any time a “right” needs to be “provided”, it ceases to be a “right” and becomes a “handout”. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/544 "2011-10-26T23:07:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In a libertarian society, you don’t have to use them. As I said, you may not survive long though. But I’m required to pay for them, thus supporting all those weak people who want Big Daddy government to take care of them? > [@Terr](#): > > Any time a “right” needs to be “provided”, it ceases to be a “right” and becomes a “handout”. But when the government provides you with the right to life or property, that’s not a handout? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/545 "2011-10-26T23:08:00Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > But I’m required to pay for them, thus supporting all those weak people who want Big Daddy government to take care of them? No. You only pay for what you use. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/546 "2011-10-26T23:08:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In a libertarian society, there is a “cosmic right to property”. If it doesn’t exist outside Libertopia, it is not a cosmic right. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/547 "2011-10-26T23:09:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If it doesn’t exist outside Libertopia, it is not a cosmic right. It exists everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/548 "2011-10-26T23:09:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, for the Nth time - you’re in the “In a libertarian society…” thread. In a libertarian society, there is a “cosmic right to property”. So the Libertarian government creates this “cosmic right to property” at it’s inception? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/549 "2011-10-26T23:10:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It exists everywhere. I am under no obligation to respect your religion, even in Libertopia. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/550 "2011-10-26T23:10:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the Libertarian government creates this “cosmic right to property” at it’s inception? No. It recognizes its existence. It exists no matter whether the government recognizes it or not. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/551 "2011-10-26T23:10:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. You only pay for what you use. So poor people should have no access to the police or courts? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/552 "2011-10-26T23:11:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It exists everywhere. I just Googled the term, and I’m not finding it anywhere except in your posts in this thread. Is it something you invented, or can you provide a cite where others talk about it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/553 "2011-10-26T23:11:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am under no obligation to respect your religion, even in Libertopia. You definitely don’t have to. But if you don’t recognize the right to property, you won’t survive long. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/554 "2011-10-26T23:11:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Any time a “right” needs to be “provided”, it ceases to be a “right” and becomes a “handout”. So then ownership property isn’t a right. If I can steal it, it wasn’t a right to keep it. Ownership of your body isn’t a right. Someone could overwhelm you and steal your kidneys. You only get property and a body because others provide you the handout of protection. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/555 "2011-10-26T23:12:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. It recognizes its existence. It exists no matter whether the government recognizes it or not. Please show me works by other Libertarians that reference it , then. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/556 "2011-10-26T23:14:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I just Googled the term, and I’m not finding it anywhere except in your posts in this thread. Is it something you invented, or can you provide a cite where others talk about it? [The Market for Liberty - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Liberty) - chapter 8. Just as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/557 "2011-10-26T23:15:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So then ownership property isn’t a right. If I can steal it, it wasn’t a right to keep it. That doesn’t follow from what I said. > [@](#): > > Ownership of your body isn’t a right. Someone could overwhelm you and steal your kidneys. That doesn’t follow from what I said. > [@](#): > > You only get property and a body because others provide you the handout of protection. Just because someone violates your right doesn’t mean the right does not exist. That’s just a basic logical fallacy. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/558 "2011-10-26T23:17:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You definitely don’t have to. But if you don’t recognize the right to property, you won’t survive long. Much like the Mafia. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/559 "2011-10-26T23:18:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That doesn’t follow from what I said. > That doesn’t follow from what I said. > Just because someone violates your right doesn’t mean the right does not exist. That’s just a basic logical fallacy. Try again. I’m just applying your own fallacious logic. You said rights didn’t have to be provided. You have no right to keep property, if others have to protect you from thieves. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/560 "2011-10-26T23:19:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [The Market for Liberty - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Liberty) - chapter 8. Just as an example. Wow, someone wrote a book. I guess that settles it then. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=29)