# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/581 "2011-10-26T23:31:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Property right derives from right to life. When my rights are violated, the violator gives up his rights. But didn’t you say rights were inalienable? Let’s look at thought. Either rights are not inalienable, or there’s certain actions that are implied consent to waive rights. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/582 "2011-10-26T23:31:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Anarchy is absence of government. Government would exist. It would provide services that people would buy. It would not provide services that people didn’t buy. It would not force its services on people who didn’t want them. And it would not provide any services that the majority didn’t want. Do minorities have any rights in Libertopia? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/583 "2011-10-26T23:31:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, it’s a lot like the Mafia? Mafia is an organization. You’d be shot by an individual for trying to steal from him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/584 "2011-10-26T23:32:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In theory, yes. In practice, for the very few cases like that, whatever governmental organizations exist would hunt you down and make you pay pro bono - because if they allowed you to continue, you would pose a danger to their subscribers. But if everyone is paying for their own guards, doesn’t it boil down to who has the bigger private army? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/585 "2011-10-26T23:33:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Mafia is an organization. You’d be shot by an individual for trying to steal from him. Ahh, I get it, just like the Mafia. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/586 "2011-10-26T23:33:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Mafia is an organization. You’d be shot by an individual for trying to steal from him. So it’s ok to steal from organizations? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/587 "2011-10-26T23:37:13Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But didn’t you say rights were inalienable? > > Let’s look at thought. Either rights are not inalienable, or there’s certain actions that are implied consent to waive rights. Which is it? By violation of others’ rights you’re giving yours up. Your argument is tautological, of the “can an omnipotent being create an immovable object” variety. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/588 "2011-10-26T23:38:37Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But if everyone is paying for their own guards, doesn’t it boil down to who has the bigger private army? You can never have the biggest private army. Especially if there are several smaller ones that can join together against you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/589 "2011-10-26T23:39:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By violation of others’ rights you’re giving yours up. Your argument is tautological, of the “can an omnipotent being create an immovable object” variety. No, but you’ve seemed to have redefined the word “inalienable” so as to make it meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/590 "2011-10-26T23:39:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And it would not provide any services that the majority didn’t want. Do minorities have any rights in Libertopia? Why wouldn’t it? It would provide the services for the minority if the minority paid for them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/591 "2011-10-26T23:40:51Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So it’s ok to steal from organizations? Non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/592 "2011-10-26T23:41:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can never have the biggest private army. Especially if there are several smaller ones that can join together against you. By definition, there’s a biggest private army. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/593 "2011-10-26T23:42:08Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > By definition, there’s a biggest private army. Until there is one bigger or several smaller ones join up against you. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/594 "2011-10-26T23:42:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Non-sequitur. Not really. The point was that taking revenge upon people who commit crimes against you is mafia-like. You’re insisting it isn’t if it’s an individual taking revenge. > [@Terr](#): > > Until there is one bigger or several smaller ones join up against you. Then that’s the biggest. This isn’t really a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/595 "2011-10-26T23:43:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why wouldn’t it? It would provide the services for the minority if the minority paid for them. If the minority couldn’t pay as much as the majority, would they still get equal rights? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/596 "2011-10-26T23:47:11Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Not really. The point was that taking revenge upon people who commit crimes against you is mafia-like. You’re insisting it isn’t if it’s an individual taking revenge. Mafia’s “taking revenge upon people who commit crimes against it” is a secondary and insignificant characteristic. Its primary characteristic is committing crimes and extortion against people who would just want to be left alone. Kinda like “Fear” in the stealing from others situation. > [@](#): > > Then that’s the biggest. This isn’t really a difficult concept. Until a bigger one is there or several smaller ones join up. So what’s the point again? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/597 "2011-10-26T23:48:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the minority couldn’t pay as much as the majority, would they still get equal rights? We’re not talking about “rights”. We’re talking about services. Individual services, to be precise. So the “minority” would be one person. So would the “majority” be. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/598 "2011-10-26T23:49:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By violation of others’ rights you’re giving yours up. Your argument is tautological, of the “can an omnipotent being create an immovable object” variety. Yes or no if you violate others rights you agree to waive your rights? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/599 "2011-10-26T23:50:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Yes or no if you violate others rights you agree to waive your rights? Yes. Now - can an omnipotent being create an immovable object? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/600 "2011-10-26T23:55:55Z")
I have noticed that other Libertarians dropped out of this conversation once **Terr** started getting specific about Libertarianism. Do you others agree with the points being made here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=31)