# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/641 "2011-10-27T01:03:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Nope. This iPhone is mine. It’s in my hands. As I said before, you wouldn’t survive long in a libertarian society when you do that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/642 "2011-10-27T01:09:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said before, you wouldn’t survive long in a libertarian society when you do that. Me and my several small armies say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/643 "2011-10-27T01:37:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said before, you wouldn’t survive long in a libertarian society when you do that. I’m sorry **Euphonious Polemic** was a crypt, and you killed him over an ipod. Now the whole gang is going to be after you. Your private police force won’t mean jack in a drive by. Your private guards kill one of theirs and they’ll kill two of yours. It isn’t about money or community, it’s about survival through ruthlessness. You remove the stabilizing affect of social safety nets, of upward mobility, of hope, and security, and you remove society. Your axioms mean squat in the jungle. Society with it’s rules, taxes, and duties is what secures your rights. It’s the social contract. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/644 "2011-10-27T01:57:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, you’re not doing a very good job. Actually I think we’re doing an excellent job of making our points. You’re just not getting it. > [@Terr](#): > > Who said you have to? If I don’t share your views on property rights, then it’s ok for you to take away my right to life? That sounds like imposing a belief system on someone, with extreme prejudice. > [@Terr](#): > > Are there any supermarkets that do that? That’s exactly the point. They are private businesses, and they work with volume. You start allowing people to jump the line, you alienate your customers. If they’d make more money that way they’d do it. If they made more money by allowing some customers to skip ahead than they lose from pissed off customers why wouldn’t they do it? Not all businesses rely on volume. A high profit margin is often better. At any rate, here’s a theme park that does something along those lines: [http://www.sixflags.com/discoveryKingdom/tickets/flashpass.aspx](http://www.sixflags.com/discoveryKingdom/tickets/flashpass.aspx) But what’s the point of this? Is this some tortured analogy to suggest that police and courts wouldn’t benefit from favoring the rich? Of course they would. In Libertopia, the rich would own the courts. Literally. > [@Terr](#): > > No it’s not ok. Isn’t that answer obvious? No, it’s not obvious at all. What’s stopping it? If I can’t afford a bigger army, I can’t stop him from taking my stuff. And once he’s taken my stuff, I can’t afford to use the police or courts to go after him. Not that they would anyways, since he’s got a huge army! He’d just take their stuff as well. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/645 "2011-10-27T02:03:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If someone is “really rich and powerful”, can he jump the line in a supermarket? Sure, he just pays each person in front of him to cut in line. Of course, he’ll be paying more and more as each person in front realizes they can probably negotiate more out of you. It would be especially pathetic if there were 5 people in front, the first 4 only have two or three items and the 1st in line has 4 carts full of groceries and a wad of coupons. You end up paying #5 $10, #4 $30, #3 $50, and #2 $100, until you finally reach #1 and you offer her $200, but she declines. You just paid $190 for practically nothing. Although, any idiot can try this now, unless there’s some store policy against it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/646 "2011-10-27T02:34:54Z")
Rights are given to you by the society around you. In the jungle there is no right to life or liberty. Groups of people get together and they create societies that enforce rights for those members. The idea of rights being universal or magical is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/647 "2011-10-27T02:52:00Z")
And to add, the best way to ensure those rights are protected, is to group them under a document signed by the members of that society and for that society, and entrusting a federal body, voted in by that society and consisting of members of that society to enforce these rights by having the society pay into the… Wait for it… Society. Rather than ascribing rights on such a granular basis down to the individual who can opt in or out of said rights, as to completely gum up the works and cause confusion and chaos over a nation of 300 million +. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/648 "2011-10-27T02:57:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said before, you wouldn’t survive long in a libertarian society when you do that. You forgot to keep reading. I pay quite a substantial sum each month to the biggest, baddest private security force around. They have plenty of small arms, RPG’s Armored personnel carriers and night vision equipment. They’ve just gotten some Westland WAH-64 Apache Longbow helicopters. I personally don’t think they’re that great, but when they drop the cluster bombs on your house, I guarantee you’ll wake up and take notice! Believe me when I tell you, you do not want to mess with one of their best clients. Now give me your shoes. (I mean, lend me your shoes please, as I would not want to use any force to get them. Now.) ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/649 "2011-10-27T03:02:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Rights are given to you by the society around you. In the jungle there is no right to life or liberty. Groups of people get together and they create societies that enforce rights for those members. > > The idea of rights being universal or magical is nonsense. Nuh uh. Just the other day I was in the jungle and a tiger attacked me. I said “hey, what about my cosmically guaranteed right to life?” And he said “Uh, you’re right. Terribly sorry about that.” and wandered off. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/650 "2011-10-27T03:07:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You remove the stabilizing affect of social safety nets, of upward mobility, of hope, and security, and you remove society. Your axioms mean squat in the jungle. Yeah, cuz you decided that libertarian society will not have “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security”. And “safety nets” are the thing that keeps people from joining gangs, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/651 "2011-10-27T03:10:00Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > If I don’t share your views on property rights, then it’s ok for you to take away my right to life? That sounds like imposing a belief system on someone, with extreme prejudice. If I don’t share your views on taxation, then it’s ok for you to take away my property? That sounds like imposing a belief system on someone, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > If they’d make more money that way they’d do it. If they made more money by allowing some customers to skip ahead than they lose from pissed off customers why wouldn’t they do it? Not all businesses rely on volume. A high profit margin is often better. Yes, but commodity businesses definitely rely on volume. And that’s what they would be. > [@](#): > > But what’s the point of this? Is this some tortured analogy to suggest that police and courts wouldn’t benefit from favoring the rich? Of course they would. In Libertopia, the rich would own the courts. Literally. Cuz you say so. > [@](#): > > No, it’s not obvious at all. What’s stopping it? If I can’t afford a bigger army, I can’t stop him from taking my stuff. Yes you can. By joining with others. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/652 "2011-10-27T03:11:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Rights are given to you by the society around you. That’s a slave mentality. And as I said, if we cannot agree on axioms, what’s the point in discussing what follows. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/653 "2011-10-27T03:11:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yeah, cuz you decided that libertarian society will not have “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security”. And “safety nets” are the thing that keeps people from joining gangs, of course. The way you’ve described it it’s pretty clear a libertarian society wouldn’t have nay of those things. And people join gangs because they’re desperate and have no other options. That’s the result of getting rid of safety nets. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/654 "2011-10-27T03:12:38Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > The way you’ve described it it’s pretty clear a libertarian society wouldn’t have nay of those things. No, the way I described it it is pretty clear that it will have all of those things. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/655 "2011-10-27T03:17:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If I don’t share your views on taxation, then it’s ok for you to take away my property? That sounds like imposing a belief system on someone, doesn’t it? I agree. but you were the one claiming you weren’t imposing a belief system on anyone. > [@Terr](#): > > Yes, but commodity businesses definitely rely on volume. And that’s what they would be. Not high end commodity businesses. You think Rolex wants to sell lots of watches? The rareness is what makes them valuable. But again, how is this relevant? > [@Terr](#): > > Cuz you say so. Yes, because I’m familiar with history. You really can’t think of any examples of the wealthy and powerful controlling the police and court system? > [@Terr](#): > > Yes you can. By joining with others. Unless the guys trying to take my stuff join up with others. Then what? Oh right. I just need to join up with even more others. That should settle it. What could go wrong? It’s not like they could wind up with more guys in the end and then take all of our stuff, right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/656 "2011-10-27T03:19:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Rights are given to you by the society around you. > [@Terr](#): > > That’s a slave mentality. And as I said, if we cannot agree on axioms, what’s the point in discussing what follows. How does that work? Suppose society decides you don’t have a right to own a firearm and you decide you do have such a right. But when you try to exercise your right, society comes along and confiscates your firearm. Doesn’t this show that rights are indeed given to you by society? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/657 "2011-10-27T03:19:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, the way I described it it is pretty clear that it will have all of those things. I must have missed that. Explain again how we’ll have “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security” when the wealthy and powerful control everything and ruthlessly exploit everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/658 "2011-10-27T03:26:28Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > It’s not like they could wind up with more guys in the end and then take all of our stuff, right? I see you’ve met my private security force. Quite imposing in their bullet proof kevlar and fatigues, aren’t they? I now have a nice pair of shoes for sale. $20? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/659 "2011-10-27T03:29:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I see you’ve met my private security force. Quite imposing in their bullet proof kevlar and fatigues, aren’t they? I now have a nice pair of shoes for sale. $20? I’ll trade you an iPod for them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/660 "2011-10-27T03:41:56Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I agree. but you were the one claiming you weren’t imposing a belief system on anyone. Where? Can you show me the post? > [@](#): > > Not high end commodity businesses. You think Rolex wants to sell lots of watches? The rareness is what makes them valuable. “High end” is not commodity. Rolex is no commodity. > [@](#): > > Yes, because I’m familiar with history. You really can’t think of any examples of the wealthy and powerful controlling the police and court system? Yes - in the society you advocate. > [@](#): > > Unless the guys trying to take my stuff join up with others. Then what? Oh right. I just need to join up with even more others. That should settle it. What could go wrong? It’s not like they could wind up with more guys in the end and then take all of our stuff, right? What prevents that in current setup? Seriously? All the “gotchas” that you guys keep trying to create can happen in a perversion of the system that you advocate. And no, for every “check and balance” you can put up I can put in a “what if that guy gets paid off” counterpost. What does that prove? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=34)