# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/661 "2011-10-27T03:43:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How does that work? Suppose society decides you don’t have a right to own a firearm and you decide you do have such a right. But when you try to exercise your right, society comes along and confiscates your firearm. > > Doesn’t this show that rights are indeed given to you by society? No, it shows that a society can suppress and violate rights that exist. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/662 "2011-10-27T03:44:04Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I must have missed that. Explain again how we’ll have “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security” when the wealthy and powerful control everything and ruthlessly exploit everyone else? Since it’s a “have you stopped beating your wife” kind of question - no, I can’t answer that. Have you stopped beating your wife? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/663 "2011-10-27T03:57:55Z")
In a society where anyone is able to obtain almost any commodity or technology legally, and with limited to no regulations, those with nothing to lose (and there would be plenty) would send quite a wake up call to the citizens with plenty to lose. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/664 "2011-10-27T04:00:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Where? Can you show me the post? Didn’t we spend 2 or 3 pages on that? Whatever, I can’t be bothered to go look. I’ll retract it since you now seem to be acknowledging that a libertarian society could only work if your extremely narrow views were imposed on everyone. > [@Terr](#): > > “High end” is not commodity. Rolex is no commodity. Whatever. Relevance? > [@Terr](#): > > Yes - in the society you advocate. No, we’re talking about a time when society was a lot closer to what you’re advocating. There are a lot more protections and transparency now. Things you’d like to get rid of. > [@Terr](#): > > What prevents that in current setup? Seriously? All the “gotchas” that you guys keep trying to create can happen in a perversion of the system that you advocate. And no, for every “check and balance” you can put up I can put in a “what if that guy gets paid off” counterpost. What does that prove? [Nirvana fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy). We can’t prevent all possible negative outcomes with the existing system, so we should remove all the protections we do have? How is that helping? Do you really think that Libertopia would be better at stopping roving warlords with armed bands than the current US government? > [@Terr](#): > > No, it shows that a society can suppress and violate rights that exist. So the right to own a gun is one of your cosmically inalienable rights as well? > [@Terr](#): > > Since it’s a “have you stopped beating your wife” kind of question - no, I can’t answer that. Have you stopped beating your wife? I’ve never been married. Again, please explain how there would be “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security” in this society you’re describing. The one where there are no government protections, police and courts are only accessible to those who can afford to pay, and it’s necessary to raise private armies to keep the roving warlords with armed bands at bay. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/665 "2011-10-27T04:09:52Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I’ll retract it since you now seem to be acknowledging that a libertarian society could only work if your extremely narrow views were imposed on everyone. It is not “imposed”. People in a libertarian society act according to certain understanding of their “rights”. If you try to violate them, you won’t survive long. > [@](#): > > No, we’re talking about a time when society was a lot closer to what you’re advocating. There are a lot more protections and transparency now. Things you’d like to get rid of. I see, you’re an idealist. You think the rich and powerful don’t own you today. > [@](#): > > Do you really think that Libertopia would be better at stopping roving warlords with armed bands than the current US government? Definitely. > [@](#): > > So the right to own a gun is one of your cosmically inalienable rights as well? The right to self-protection is. Guns are part of it. > [@](#): > > Again, please explain how there would be “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security” in this society you’re describing. The one where there are no government protections, police and courts are only accessible to those who can afford to pay, and it’s necessary to raise private armies to keep the roving warlords with armed bands at bay. Again, that’s your vision of that society. Not mine. So the premise of your question is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/666 "2011-10-27T04:10:23Z")
Can I build a nuke? Just a small one. I promise – No! – pinky promise not to use it against mine and my brethren’s sworn enemies, The Unholy State of Iowa. In other words, imagine if the American Civil War had nukes. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/667 "2011-10-27T04:27:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is not “imposed”. People in a libertarian society act according to certain understanding of their “rights”. If you try to violate them, you won’t survive long. Right. Accept your understanding of “rights” or die. Not imposed at all. You’re free to chose! > [@Terr](#): > > I see, you’re an idealist. You think the rich and powerful don’t own you today. Nirvana fallacy again. I said things are better today, not perfect. > [@Terr](#): > > Definitely. Really? Because the current US government seems to have 100% success at keeping the roving warlords with armed bands at bay. And somehow Libertopia will do better, inspite of the lack of any real disincentive to become a roving warlord with an armed band? > [@Terr](#): > > The right to self-protection is. Guns are part of it. What about nukes, or other WMDs? If I feel they’re necessary for my personal protection, who are you to tell me no? > [@Terr](#): > > Again, that’s your vision of that society. Not mine. So the premise of your question is wrong. The societies, past and present, that have come closest to your description of a libertarian society have had very little “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security”. What will make Libertopia different? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/668 "2011-10-27T04:35:07Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Right. Accept your understanding of “rights” or die. Not imposed at all. You’re free to chose! Nah. It’s not MY understanding of “rights” that you have to accept or die. It’s that guy’s over there. You know, the one you’re intending to steal from. > [@](#): > > Nirvana fallacy again. I said things are better today, not perfect. Look in the mirror. You’re the one demanding perfection from the libertarian society. > [@](#): > > Really? Because the current US government seems to have 100% success at keeping the roving warlords with armed bands at bay. Seriously? Have you been to an inner city lately? > [@](#): > > And somehow Libertopia will do better, inspite of the lack of any real disincentive to become a roving warlord with an armed band? A heavily armed populace not shy about using their weapons to defend themselves is quite a disincentive. > [@](#): > > What about nukes, or other WMDs? If I feel they’re necessary for my personal protection, who are you to tell me no? You’re welcome to it. Last I checked, nuclear weapons cost a pretty penny. Where exactly are you getting them? > [@](#): > > The societies, past and present, that have come closest to your description of a libertarian society have had very little “upward mobility”, “hope” and “security”. No, those societies (judging by your cries of “Somalia”) are the closest to your warped understanding of what a libertarian society would be like. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/669 "2011-10-27T04:40:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Last I checked, nuclear weapons cost a pretty penny. Where exactly are you getting them?. Well, let’s see… Now that enriched uranium and plutonium has been deregulated, me and my friends at MIT would consider it a pet project to make one. Should be fun! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/670 "2011-10-27T04:45:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it shows that a society can suppress and violate rights that exist. So you’re saying a right can exist even when society does not allow it to be practiced. That means that the Second Amendment would still exist as a right even if the government confiscated all the firearms in the country. That might be the making of a resolution the the gun issue that would make everyone happy. The pro-gun people would be happy because their Second Amendment rights would be safe and secure and the anti-gun people would be happy because there were no guns around. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/671 "2011-10-27T04:52:20Z")
“Where there is no patrol car, there is no speed limit.” -Peter Beckmann ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/672 "2011-10-27T04:55:47Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Well, let’s see… Now that enriched uranium and plutonium has been deregulated, me and my friends at MIT would consider it a pet project to make one. Should be fun! Yes sure. Cuz it’s that easy. It takes billions if not tens/hundreds of $billions to create a nuclear program advanced enough to produce a nuclear weapon. Now imagine a libertarian society. Explain why someone with tens if not hundreds of $billions would spend his money that way. Then explain why that person would either detonate the weapon himself or sell it (for how much? Presumably more than he spent on it, right?) to anyone? A nuclear wasteland is not very conducive to the kind of life that that billionaire is used to. Your scenario doesn’t make any sense in a libertarian society. You will note that ONLY governments, funded to the brim with taxpayers’ money, develop nuclear weapons today. Make government weak and who will do it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/673 "2011-10-27T04:56:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying a right can exist even when society does not allow it to be practiced. That means that the Second Amendment would still exist as a right even if the government confiscated all the firearms in the country. Definitely. > [@](#): > > That might be the making of a resolution the the gun issue that would make everyone happy. The pro-gun people would be happy because their Second Amendment rights would be safe and secure and the anti-gun people would be happy because there were no guns around. No, they would not be “safe and secure”. They would be suppressed, violated and trampled upon. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/674 "2011-10-27T04:59:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah. It’s not MY understanding of “rights” that you have to accept or die. It’s that guy’s over there. You know, the one you’re intending to steal from. So I could kill anyone who I feel is violating my “rights” based on whatever understanding of “rights” I chose? I thought these were cosmically-granted and inalienable? > [@Terr](#): > > Look in the mirror. You’re the one demanding perfection from the libertarian society. I’m not demanding perfection, I’m trying to understand how it could possibly work. > [@Terr](#): > > Seriously? Have you been to an inner city lately? That’s really not what we were talking about, but fair enough. How does Libertopia make this better? Who’s going to pay the police to go in and clean it up? Or do we have to raise an army to go in and impose martial law? > [@Terr](#): > > A heavily armed populace not shy about using their weapons to defend themselves is quite a disincentive. Sounds like a recipe for an extremely violent society. > [@Terr](#): > > You’re welcome to it. Last I checked, nuclear weapons cost a pretty penny. Where exactly are you getting them? With all the money I’ll make from my roving armed band. > [@Terr](#): > > No, those societies (judging by your cries of “Somalia”) are the closest to your warped understanding of what a libertarian society would be like. Ok, if not Somalia, then what? Is there another country in the world today that is closer to Libertopia? And what would it take to transform it into Libertopia? Say I put you in charge of the biggest, baddest roving armed band in Somalia. What’s the agenda? How do you go about remaking society into this paradise of freedom? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/675 "2011-10-27T05:02:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes sure. Cuz it’s that easy. > > It takes billions if not tens/hundreds of $billions to create a nuclear program advanced enough to produce a nuclear weapon. Now imagine a libertarian society. Explain why someone with tens if not hundreds of $billions would spend his money that way. Then explain why that person would either detonate the weapon himself or sell it (for how much? Presumably more than he spent on it, right?) to anyone? A nuclear wasteland is not very conducive to the kind of life that that billionaire is used to. > > Your scenario doesn’t make any sense in a libertarian society. You will note that ONLY governments, funded to the brim with taxpayers’ money, develop nuclear weapons today. Make government weak and who will do it? I exaggerate to point out the inherent dangers. Regardless of how much it costs to build a weapon, this country is the first and one of the largest nuclear powers on the planet. And that’s just one… _one_… example. Your blatant disregard for how technology has turned the playing field society plays on completely upside down boggles my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/676 "2011-10-27T05:13:42Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So I could kill anyone who I feel is violating my “rights” based on whatever understanding of “rights” I chose? I thought these were cosmically-granted and inalienable? Yes, they are. > [@](#): > > I’m not demanding perfection, I’m trying to understand how it could possibly work. Frankly? No, you’re not. > [@](#): > > That’s really not what we were talking about, but fair enough. How does Libertopia make this better? Who’s going to pay the police to go in and clean it up? Or do we have to raise an army to go in and impose martial law? > > Sounds like a recipe for an extremely violent society. No, sounds like a recipe for a very peaceful society. > [@](#): > > With all the money I’ll make from my roving armed band. Again with the flippant bullshit. You’re saying you’re trying to understand? > [@](#): > > Ok, if not Somalia, then what? Is there another country in the world today that is closer to Libertopia? And what would it take to transform it into Libertopia? Say I put you in charge of the biggest, baddest roving armed band in Somalia. What’s the agenda? How do you go about remaking society into this paradise of freedom? You don’t transform Somalia. You transform a developed country. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/677 "2011-10-27T05:14:45Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I exaggerate to point out the inherent dangers. Regardless of how much it costs to build a weapon, this country is the first and one of the largest nuclear powers on the planet. And that’s just one… _one_… example. Your blatant disregard for how technology has turned the playing field society plays on completely upside down boggles my mind. You exaggerate to the point of absurdity, as I explained. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/678 "2011-10-27T05:27:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, they are. You keep going back and forth on this. They’re inalienable and unquestionable when you’re rationalizing your beliefs, but they’re optional and up to individual determination when asked if people will be coerced into accepting them. > [@Terr](#): > > Frankly? No, you’re not. Yes, I am. I’ve presented several hypotheticals about how these rights would be guaranteed in Libertopia. You’ve utterly failed to answer any of them. > [@Terr](#): > > No, sounds like a recipe for a very peaceful society. Right, because a society where everyone’s heavily armed and doesn’t hesitate to start shooting at the slightest provocation would be so peaceful. > [@Terr](#): > > Again with the flippant bullshit. You’re saying you’re trying to understand? What’s flippant about that? You asked how I’d raise enough money for my own nukes. I told you how I’d do it. > [@Terr](#): > > You don’t transform Somalia. You transform a developed country. So only developed countries are capable of being Libertopias? Why is that? If these principles are so universal then why can’t they work anywhere? Are people in undeveloped countries morally deficient somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/679 "2011-10-27T05:47:41Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > You keep going back and forth on this. They’re inalienable and unquestionable when you’re rationalizing your beliefs, but they’re optional and up to individual determination when asked if people will be coerced into accepting them. They are inalienable. You can either recognize them or not. But if you don’t recognize them that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You refuse to understand that. That’s your problem. > [@](#): > > Yes, I am. I’ve presented several hypotheticals about how these rights would be guaranteed in Libertopia. You’ve utterly failed to answer any of them. Rights are not “guaranteed”. They are defended - either by you or by someone you hire. > [@](#): > > Right, because a society where everyone’s heavily armed and doesn’t hesitate to start shooting at the slightest provocation would be so peaceful. “start shooting at the slightest provocation”. More flippant bullshit. > [@](#): > > So only developed countries are capable of being Libertopias? Why is that? If these principles are so universal then why can’t they work anywhere? Are people in undeveloped countries morally deficient somehow? Yes. That’s why the countries are “undeveloped”. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/680 "2011-10-27T06:02:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They are inalienable. You can either recognize them or not. But if you don’t recognize them that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You refuse to understand that. That’s your problem. I understand your view perfectly. you just don’t seem to understand that choosing some arbitrary set of rights and declaring them inalienable isn’t really a defensible position, nor is it a realistic basis for a society to operate on. > [@Terr](#): > > Rights are not “guaranteed”. They are defended - either by you or by someone you hire. Unless someone hires more people to take them away from you, in which case you’re screwed. And don’t start with that “just get a bigger army” nonsense again. > [@Terr](#): > > “start shooting at the slightest provocation”. More flippant bullshit. Obviously you don’t know too many gun rights advocates. > [@Terr](#): > > Yes. That’s why the countries are “undeveloped”. Good to know. I guess Libertopia will need a large standing army to protect us from those rampaging hordes of people from undeveloped countries who aren’t sufficiently evolved to understand our inalienable rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=35)