# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/681 "2011-10-27T06:04:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > I understand your view perfectly. you just don’t seem to understand that choosing some arbitrary set of rights and declaring them inalienable isn’t really a defensible position, nor is it a realistic basis for a society to operate on. They are not arbitrary. > [@](#): > > Unless someone hires more people to take them away from you, in which case you’re screwed. And don’t start with that “just get a bigger army” nonsense again. Get a bigger army or join up with others. Yes, that’s how it works. > [@](#): > > Obviously you don’t know too many gun rights advocates. Yes, all the gun owners in this country shoot at the slightest provocation. Not. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/682 "2011-10-27T06:10:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They are not arbitrary. Then what are they based on? Besides your belief that they exist? > [@Terr](#): > > Get a bigger army or join up with others. Yes, that’s how it works. Jeebus. You really believe this don’t you? There’s just no possibility that the bad guys could end up with a larger army? Why not? This is just magical thinking. > [@Terr](#): > > Yes, all the gun owners in this country shoot at the slightest provocation. Not. No, because they’d get in trouble. Take away the laws and there’ll be a lot more violence. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/683 "2011-10-27T06:13:35Z")
One benefit of total “Libertopia”’ would be the creation of a more durable species. Those less fit would perish, while the hardy would survive to procreate. It would be more in line with the true nature of man. This system worked for millions of years before any government existed. No matter how big a government you create to protect everybody from everything, there’s always going to be that frozen virus that comes here on a asteroid and takes us all out. Which civilization would be better equipped to face such a disaster? A more authoritarian government might impose regulations on space travel for example. While in Libertopia this would never happen and we would be more likely to be able to escape. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/684 "2011-10-27T06:28:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > One benefit of total “Libertopia”’ would be the creation of a more durable species. Those less fit would perish, while the hardy would survive to procreate. It would be more in line with the true nature of man. This system worked for millions of years before any government existed. So we’re back to roving armed bands? I think that does it for my participation in this thread. Have fun, y’all. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/685 "2011-10-27T06:39:28Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So we’re back to roving armed bands? I think that does it for my participation in this thread. Have fun, y’all. THAT was the straw that broke the camels back? Page after page of bs like supergerms, evil maniacs flushing stuff down the toilet, and Mad Max fantasies, and that’s the one that’s too much. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/686 "2011-10-27T07:20:52Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Then what are they based on? Besides your belief that they exist? No. The rights that are inalienable do not depend on someone giving them to you. They just exist. The right to life. The right to ownership of your own body. The right to property. They depend on no one - just you and your ability to defend them. Compare and contrast this to “the right to education”. Or “the right to health care”. > [@](#): > > Jeebus. You really believe this don’t you? There’s just no possibility that the bad guys could end up with a larger army? Why not? Because there are more “good guys” than “bad guys”. And if there are more “bad guys” then no society model will help. > [@](#): > > No, because they’d get in trouble. Take away the laws and there’ll be a lot more violence. Not with heavily armed (and trained in use of arms) populace willing to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/687 "2011-10-27T07:27:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not with heavily armed (and trained in use of arms) populace willing to defend themselves. And you feel that a heavily armed populace defending itself will somehow not involve violence? In a society where the only rights you have are those you’re willing to fight for? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/688 "2011-10-27T12:09:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > One benefit of total “Libertopia”’ would be the creation of a more durable species. Those less fit would perish, while the hardy would survive to procreate. It would be more in line with the true nature of man. This system worked for millions of years before any government existed. Really? Survival of the fittest applied in a sociopolitical context? Did we fall through a wormhole to 1911? The irony is that asocial, nerdy eggheads would be wiped out nearly immediately. Libertopia would be destroyed in its very effort to birth itself. > [@](#): > > No matter how big a government you create to protect everybody from everything, there’s always going to be that frozen virus that comes here on a asteroid and takes us all out. Which civilization would be better equipped to face such a disaster? Perhaps one that strives to find the best balance between the strengths of collective society and the values of individual liberty. > [@](#): > > A more authoritarian government might impose regulations on space travel for example. While in Libertopia this would never happen and we would be more likely to be able to escape. You know, I never thought of evaluating the organization of a society in terms of the ability of individuals to build their own space pods to escape the inevitable frozen-virus-laden asteroid. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/689 "2011-10-27T12:12:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And you feel that a heavily armed populace defending itself will somehow not involve violence? In a society where the only rights you have are those you’re willing to fight for? While at the same time invoking the conserva-fantasy spectre of the lawless and ultra-violent inner city? I wonder why **Terr** believes that some heavily-armed and lawless societies devolve into inescapable violence (US inner cities), whereas some others wouldn’t (Libertopia). I do have a guess, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/690 "2011-10-27T12:18:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. The rights that are inalienable do not depend on someone giving them to you. They just exist. The right to life. The right to ownership of your own body. The right to property. They depend on no one - just you and your ability to defend them. The rights of the Majority-the rights of the Strong. Where have I heard this before? ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/691 "2011-10-27T12:53:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Get a bigger army or join up with others. Yes, that’s how it works. Wait a minute. So in Libertopia if I gather together a large enough band of like-minded individuals we could happily hire our own army and force other people to join in instituting, I don’t know, universal healthcare? Awesome! But how would _that_ system be any different from the system we have now (well, apart from the better healthcare)? Also, property is not an inalienable right. There have been many societies though-out history that have existed quite well without the concept of private property. You only think it’s an inalienable right because you are the product of a modern, western, consumerist society and can’t imagine the thought of living without your toys. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/692 "2011-10-27T13:35:12Z")
Yea, so far the only description of Libertopia that seems to fit what’s being discussed is “post-apocalyptic, without the zombies.” Whoever’s got the most guns makes the rules. No thanks. I’ll take some civilization that’s paid for by my taxes that I’ve tacitly agreed to pay by continuing to live in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/693 "2011-10-27T14:06:11Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Yea, so far the only description of Libertopia that seems to fit what’s being discussed is “post-apocalyptic, without the zombies.” Whoever’s got the most guns makes the rules. > > No thanks. I’ll take some civilization that’s paid for by my taxes that I’ve tacitly agreed to pay by continuing to live in this country. I think they somehow envision some kind of world that might be called _Rational Max_, in which there are just so many “good guys” who see the eminently compelling logic of individual liberty that everyone will get along, easily withstanding the few “bad guys” who don’t buy into the program. Instead of an Aussie in black leather with a sawed off shotgun, one imagines Ron Paul riding up to the under-siege compound in a limo, and then leading the moocher hoarde away while defending himself with unassailable logic. I wonder if there would still be a razor boomerang. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/694 "2011-10-27T14:26:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think they somehow envision some kind of world that might be called _Rational Max_, in which there are just so many “good guys” who see the eminently compelling logic of individual liberty that everyone will get along, easily withstanding the few “bad guys” who don’t buy into the program. > > Instead of an Aussie in black leather with a sawed off shotgun, one imagines Ron Paul riding up to the under-siege compound in a limo, and then leading the moocher hoarde away while defending himself with unassailable logic. I wonder if there would still be a razor boomerang. What they don’t understand is that a system that relies on the “inherent rationality” of humans is doomed to fail. And I don’t want to live in a PAW without leather chaps and blond mohawks. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/695 "2011-10-27T14:38:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > THAT was the straw that broke the camels back? Page after page of bs like supergerms, evil maniacs flushing stuff down the toilet, and Mad Max fantasies, and that’s the one that’s too much. In a world where people can fly metal tubes as bombs into structures that reach thousands of feet into the air and are filled with people, then subsequently kill everyone aboard, and collapse these structures, as well as fly one of these metal tubes into the nation’s military headquarters. Yes. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/696 "2011-10-27T14:42:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > THAT was the straw that broke the camels back? Page after page of bs like supergerms, evil maniacs flushing stuff down the toilet, and Mad Max fantasies, and that’s the one that’s too much. Please explain to me how [Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus](http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/news/20071016/more-us-deaths-from-mrsa-than-aids) bacteria infections, that cause 18,000 deaths/year is “bs” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/697 "2011-10-27T14:45:33Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > What they don’t understand is that a system that relies on the “inherent rationality” of humans is doomed to fail. > > And I don’t want to live in a PAW without leather chaps and blond mohawks. Without the interference of Big Government, you will be free to wear both. Hell, you will be able to wear ass-less leather pants if you like. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/698 "2011-10-27T14:49:03Z")
It sounds like fantasies until it actually fucking happens. Listen. Just because a nuclear program costs tens of billions of dollars for the current government to keep up and running, doesn’t mean that’s what it would take for any splinter militia cell to build one suitcase bomb with the proper, scavenged materials and know-how. Again, this society, as has been argued, is almost entirely _reactionary,_ and assumes there are no technological threats that have come into existence since 1804. Also, a Darwinian society may as well be anarchy. Survival of the fittest? Seriously? Just because nature is indifferent, doesn’t mean we have to be. Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/699 "2011-10-27T14:50:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Get a bigger army or join up with others. Yes, that’s how it works. I’ve already told you. I contract with the biggest, baddest private security company around. Feel free to try to find a bigger company, but trust me, you won’t have much luck. My company is very “competitive”, and likes to give a good return to shareholders and service to clients, so they have made sure that nobody anywhere is better trained and armed. They’re very keen on keeping track of any “competition” and making sure that they are never a threat. Feel free to join up with as many folks as you like and come at them with your handguns, rocks and pointed sticks though. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/700 "2011-10-27T15:00:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Please explain to me how [Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus](http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/news/20071016/more-us-deaths-from-mrsa-than-aids) bacteria infections, that cause 18,000 deaths/year is “bs” Explain to me how 18,000 deaths per year is a drop in the bucket of 7 billion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=36)