# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/721 "2011-10-27T16:19:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Say people start dropping out of the skys to theirdeath on these private excursions. Don’t you think the government you’re advocating will indeed place onerous regulations on these companies? I don’t know. That’s another example of you assuming that the government is controlling every aspect of our lives. You even imagine future scenarios where it exists. It is difficult to argue against this, when you can simply make up things that “will happen” in the future,because you imagine that the government wants to control every aspect of your life. In libertarian land, I guess these companies would be allowed to do whatever they want, and crap would be dropping out of the sky on a regular basis. In real life, a government would probably enact regulations along the lines of what is in place for major jet airline manufacturers. And they seem to be able to run their companies. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/722 "2011-10-27T16:20:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You’re equating Libertopia to a time before agriculture. The market has provided all of the time-saving advances that we have developed so far. Government only serves to limit these innovations. These advances would still be present if we instituted Libertopia tomorrow. We would still have clean water. > > A madman could poison our water system today. But does that happen? No. > > ““Survival of the fittest” starves the intelligence of the human race and promotes physical endurance”. This statement is completely false. If it were true, why have humans evolved into the most advanced, dominant beings on the planet? I’ll give you a hint, its not because of our biceps. All of this, all of it, ignores the fact that we only are where we are today because of society. Even if it was feasible to move to a Libertopia today, you’re still arguing here that it’s possible because of technological innovation. Technological innovation _that could not have happened without government_. The market isn’t some magical beast that roams the wilderness. It needs a government to protect it so that it can thrive. We were cavemen until we started banding together. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/723 "2011-10-27T16:21:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Also, we tried strictly regulating alcohol. It does not work - we found that society will not stand for these regulations, and they caused more problems than they solved Therefore we don’t do it anymore. Interestingly, we relaxed these regulations, thus disproving your theory that some regulations will lead to more and more and more. No, somebody mentioned that technological dangers were what necessitated regulation. Technology will most likely continue to create threatening situations so indeed more and more and more regulations will be created. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/724 "2011-10-27T16:22:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Exactly, and I gave the example of a virus on an asteroid that lands on Earth. In this given environment your society would be destroyed. While my society without government reguation of space travel would have a chance of survival. There is no government regulation preventing you from developing your Space Escape Pods ™ right now. Are you suggesting that in your Libertopian paradise the market driven economy is going to develop a highly specialized and thus otherwise mostly useless technology, that of vehicles capable of performing and sustaining manned escape from an apocalypse of planet earth, and just have it waiting around in the wings on the miniscule likelyhood that it will be useful (and profitable) this fiscal year or next? I too am having difficulty separating the descriptions of Libertopia in this thread from fantasyland. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/725 "2011-10-27T16:24:35Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Technological innovation _that could not have happened without government_. The wheel was created under watch of the government? Fire? Weapons? No sir. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/726 "2011-10-27T16:28:09Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > There is no government regulation preventing you from developing your Space Escape Pods ™ right now. Under your authoritarian government, there could be eventually once the dangers have been established. > [@CannyDan](#): > > Are you suggesting that in your Libertopian paradise the market driven economy is going to develop a highly specialized and thus otherwise mostly useless technology, that of vehicles capable of performing and sustaining manned escape from an apocalypse of planet earth, and just have it waiting around in the wings on the miniscule likelyhood that it will be useful (and profitable) this fiscal year or next? So why is space travel being developed now? The government? This paragraph makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/727 "2011-10-27T16:35:40Z")
Everyone’s assumption in this thread is that our current government is not showing a tendency toward authoritarianism. I believe this to be false, thus libertarian ideals are something to be considered in moderation. Without a libertarian voice, authoritarianism will continue its creep. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/728 "2011-10-27T16:36:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The wheel was created under watch of the government? Fire? Weapons? No sir. You oversimplify. I do not say that there was some Bureau Of Warm-Making Methods investigating how to create fire. What I say is that the protections and basic level of living standards government affords its citizens allows them to turn their minds from having to worry about where the next meal is coming from to less immediate concerns such as abstract theory and invention. In a libertarian society, everyone has to be a generalist to survive. You _must_ spend large portions of your education and life on basic concerns that government currently provides or ensures just to get by. Absent-minded geniuses and hyperspecialist scientists can’t survive in that world, yet they provide some of our best breakthroughs. That’s why I say technology and society would regress. It would at best fall back to the latest era of time when people were more or less expected to fend for themselves. My guess would be early 1800s, before the Industrial Revolution kicked off. If that appeals to you, bully for you. It doesn’t me. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/729 "2011-10-27T16:38:21Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think part of your difficulty is that you imagine government control and regulations where none actually exist. See your example of the government preventing private companies from settling habitable areas of space. It’s imaginary. > > You have built up an imaginary government control of your life without looking at the factual evidence. And you ignore a government control of your life that is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/730 "2011-10-27T16:39:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And you feel that a heavily armed populace defending itself will somehow not involve violence? In a society where the only rights you have are those you’re willing to fight for? Yes. No matter what you think, very few people are willing to risk their lives to violate rights of others. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/731 "2011-10-27T16:41:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > While at the same time invoking the conserva-fantasy spectre of the lawless and ultra-violent inner city? > > I wonder why **Terr** believes that some heavily-armed and lawless societies devolve into inescapable violence (US inner cities), whereas some others wouldn’t (Libertopia). I do have a guess, of course. US inner cities are not “heavily armed”. The gangs are heavily armed. The general population isn’t - due to anti-gun laws in a lot of such cities. Like Chicago. Or Baltimore. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/732 "2011-10-27T16:41:53Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You oversimplify. I do not say that there was some Bureau Of Warm-Making Methods investigating how to create fire. What I say is that the protections and basic level of living standards government affords its citizens allows them to turn their minds from having to worry about where the next meal is coming from to less immediate concerns such as abstract theory and invention.. No the market has allowed you to not worry where your next meal is coming from. The government’s role should be only to protect property rights (this includes individual rights). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/733 "2011-10-27T16:43:20Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > Wait a minute. So in Libertopia if I gather together a large enough band of like-minded individuals we could happily hire our own army and force other people to join in instituting, I don’t know, universal healthcare? Only if you were willing to risk your life doing that. Because those whom you would try to force would fight back. > [@](#): > > Also, property is not an inalienable right. There have been many societies though-out history that have existed quite well without the concept of private property. Just because some societies suppressed that right doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/734 "2011-10-27T16:45:59Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > It sounds like fantasies until it actually fucking happens. > > Listen. Just because a nuclear program costs tens of billions of dollars for the current government to keep up and running, doesn’t mean that’s what it would take for any splinter militia cell to build one suitcase bomb with the proper, scavenged materials and know-how. In a libertarian society, where would they get the “proper, scavenged materials”? Someone would have to produce those materials, spending billions to do it. So - why would someone do that, and if they did for some weird reason, why would they be so lax with their $billions investment that they would let someone else steal it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/735 "2011-10-27T16:47:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’ve already told you. I contract with the biggest, baddest private security company around. And I already told you, there are more “good guys” than “bad guys”. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/736 "2011-10-27T16:48:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No the market has allowed you to not worry where your next meal is coming from. This is just adorable. The market doesn’t _care_. The market would sell me sawdust if it could. That means I then have to spend my time researching companies to find the ones who won’t sell me sawdust, which is a waste of my time when we could have an entire agency whose job it is to check up on companies for me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/737 "2011-10-27T16:49:27Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > They’re telling us they have inalienable rights, fine, but they can only be reacted to, not prevented. That’s not good enough. Sure. Because you think it is better to arrest someone before they commit the crime. You must have loved “Minority Report”. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/738 "2011-10-27T16:56:36Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > This is just adorable. > > The market doesn’t _care_. The market would sell me sawdust if it could. That means I then have to spend my time researching companies to find the ones who won’t sell me sawdust, which is a waste of my time when we could have an entire agency whose job it is to check up on companies for me. So was it free market innovation that created the highly efficient food industry we have today? Or was it the government? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/739 "2011-10-27T17:04:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So was it free market innovation that created the highly efficient food industry we have today? Or was it the government? It was the government that made sure that “highly efficient food industry” can’t poison us before we can discover the poison. That’s what regulations do, you see. They allow the market to exist and thrive by ensuring greedy short-sighted entrepreneurs don’t exploit workers or consumers. It prevents high-intensity short-term gains in favor of a steady, sustainable long-term benefit. High efficiency is not always the best option. Without regulation, I could very easily create a food company that made massive amounts of money just by lacing its products with addictive drugs. By the time anyone realized I was doing so, I’d have a major percentage of the populace who _had_ to keep buying my company’s brand of food. That’s efficient, right? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/740 "2011-10-27T17:06:16Z")
The prevailing attitude of this thread is such that it leads me to believe people are afraid of everything and everyone. And in order for people to lead their lives they must be protected from wronddoing at every turn. Do you know who is unafraid of anything? Infants. Terr can have this thread back. I’ve said what I wanted to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=38)