# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/781 "2011-10-27T20:37:15Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Hey, you know what? > > We’ve just re-invented government. But it’ll be _privatized_. It can look like government all it wants, but the important thing is that it isn’t called government. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/782 "2011-10-27T20:38:42Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > In what way does Israel parallel Libertopia or otherwise demonstrate that your fantasy world could possibly come true? It is a heavily armed society that prevents “bad guys” running wild. You know, what was called “magical thinking” earlier. > [@](#): > > You don’t really think that Israelis routinely engage in one-on-one armed self defense against transgressors of their property rights, do you? Moving goalposts, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/783 "2011-10-27T20:41:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > We’re not talking a couple of overweight security guards here. This is a major firm. We’re not talking about a couple of guys with 22s. We’re talking thousand heavily armed citizens. > [@](#): > > They also look after security for the Governor, several judges and quite a few successful businessmen like myself. They don’t just have small arms, they have ready access to helicopter gunships, armored vehicles and some other stuff that frankly you don’t have security clearance to even know about. They’re trained in quick assault, hostage rescue and dealing with all manner of opposing forces. They have lines of communication to the Governors office, the phone company and the court system. the In addition, they have an intelligence team who are quite, quite good at finding out information about any upcoming threats to their business model. And that’s what you and your “heavily armed” group are to them. A threat to their business. Wonderful fantasy. Nothing to do with any kind of reality, but great fantasy. Of course, they are also a monopoly, and have no competition, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/784 "2011-10-27T20:42:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There are more good guys than bad guys…that’s what makes human civilization possible at all. > > There are, however, enough bad guys that some government is necessary. The libertarians here have emphasized that they don’t favor anarchy. I am sympathetic to the argument for less government. But I am extremely dubious about their notions of a massive restructuring of our fundamental form of government. > > I’ll listen to libertarians when they talk about repealing motorcycle helmet laws. > > When they start trying to fund government on donations, they lose me, fast. No, not donations. Fees for services, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/785 "2011-10-27T20:44:26Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But it’ll be _privatized_. It can look like government all it wants, but the important thing is that it isn’t called government. It will be voluntary association of people, with signed, written contracts, where the obligations and duties are clearly spelled out, and any changes have to be done with consent from both sides. And it will not be a monopoly. Quite a difference from the current setup. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/786 "2011-10-27T21:17:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Drugs, medicines, plants, foods, whatever you want. It’s your body, you’re allowed to ingest whatever you want. Unless you think that you have to be “extremely rich and powerful” to do that. > > You (plural) keep throwing up examples that you think are “gotchas” that can easily be handled by voluntarily signed contracts in a libertarian society. But that’s not enough for you. You need it to be involuntary, forced, government laws that regulate people’s behavior. I suspect it’s because deep down you have contempt for the “hoi polloi” that don’t know what’s good for them and the government needs to be the Big Daddy. Of course, YOU, personally, don’t need the government’s restrictions. But the other people do. Those poor stupid schmucks. As far as unrestricted access to medication goes, read this: [BBC NEWS | Health | Drug resistant TB 'more severe'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6182223.stm). Down here, antibiotics are available without prescription, and widely advertised on TV, not as antibiotics but to “alleviate the symptoms of la gripa”, which in the vernacular means any kind of respiratory unpleasantness. Campesinos and the urban poor are not "poor stupid schmucks " but they aren’t highly educated in medical science, and they are continually lied to by TV advertising. All they know, beyond the pharmaceutical companies’ lying ads, is that Uncle Julio took some of those pills and feels somewhat better, so they buy some. And they often can’t afford a full two week’s , or whatever, dose, or as soon as they feel better they just stop taking the pills. The result of that is that a number of antibiotic resistant diseases have developed. the worst of which is probably Extreme Antibiotic Resistant Tuberculosis, EARTB is completely incurable, invariably (and painfully) lethal, .and spreading fast in Latin America, Asia, Africa and Europe. In Mexico alone there are three hundred thousand known infected, and an unknown number undiagnosed. (One site says that India has three million infected). Unless a medical miracle, about on the level of going to Lourdes and having an amputated leg regrown, occurs, every one of those infected is going to die. Allow me to repeat that, in Caps, so maybe it’ll get through: AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE “FREEDOM” YOU LIBERTARIANS ARE PROPOSING, AT LEAST THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE IN MEXICO ALONE ARE GOING TO DIE A PAINFUL, LINGERING DEATH. And the disease is coming to your neighborhood soon: there is no known way of stopping the spread of infection. Is that a reasonable “collateral damage” to your insistence on not having to bother getting a perscription to buy your pills? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/787 "2011-10-27T21:22:57Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But it’ll be _privatized_. It can look like government all it wants, but the important thing is that it isn’t called government. Yes, I get it now!! I could get behind that! All I need is the ability to delude myself. Or a frontal lobotomy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/788 "2011-10-27T21:26:26Z")
> [@Mapache](#): > > As far as unrestricted access to medication goes, read this: > [BBC NEWS | Health | Drug resistant TB 'more severe'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6182223.stm). Down here, antibiotics are available without prescription, and widely advertised on TV, not as antibiotics but to “alleviate the symptoms of la gripa”, which in the vernacular means any kind of respiratory unpleasantness. Campesinos and the urban poor are not "poor stupid schmucks " but they aren’t highly educated in medical science, and they are continually lied to by TV advertising. All they know, beyond the pharmaceutical companies’ lying ads, is that Uncle Julio took some of those pills and feels somewhat better, so they buy some. And they often can’t afford a full two week’s , or whatever, dose, or as soon as they feel better they just stop taking the pills. The result of that is that a number of antibiotic resistant diseases have developed. the worst of which is probably Extreme Antibiotic Resistant Tuberculosis, EARTB is completely incurable, invariably (and painfully) > lethal, .and spreading fast in Latin America, Asia, Africa and Europe. In Mexico alone there are three hundred thousand known infected, and an unknown number undiagnosed. (One site says that India has three million infected). Unless a medical miracle, about on the level of going to Lourdes and having an amputated leg regrown, occurs, every one of those infected is going to die. > Allow me to repeat that, in Caps, so maybe it’ll get through: AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE “FREEDOM” YOU LIBERTARIANS ARE PROPOSING, AT LEAST THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE IN MEXICO ALONE ARE GOING TO DIE A PAINFUL, LINGERING DEATH. And the disease is coming to your neighborhood soon: there is no known way of stopping the spread of infection. Is that a reasonable “collateral damage” to your insistence on not having to bother getting a perscription to buy your pills? You probably meant XDR-TB (since there are no google hits on EARTB). XDR-TB is not “invariably (and painfully) lethal”, it can be cured and this: [Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensively_drug-resistant_tuberculosis) says there are 40,000 cases a year. Want me to use caps, so it gets through? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/789 "2011-10-27T21:27:34Z")
> [@mapache](#): > > is that a reasonable “collateral damage” to your insistence on not having to bother getting a perscription to buy your pills? freedom! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/790 "2011-10-27T21:29:07Z")
> [@Mapache](#): > > Is that a reasonable “collateral damage” to your insistence on not having to bother getting a perscription to buy your pills? Betcha he works “chaos theory” in to his answer, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/791 "2011-10-27T21:38:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It will be voluntary association of people, with signed, written contracts, where the obligations and duties are clearly spelled out, and any changes have to be done with consent from both sides. And it will not be a monopoly. Quite a difference from the current setup. How many different contracts do you suppose would have to be signed to live in a typical Libertarian community? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/792 "2011-10-27T21:44:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different contracts do you suppose would have to be signed to live in a typical Libertarian community? A lot. Is that your objection? How many do you think you’re signing today? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/793 "2011-10-27T21:45:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > We’re not talking about a couple of guys with 22s. We’re talking thousand heavily armed citizens. Thousands of citizens all of whom opt in using individual contracts, each of which have to be re-negotiated for every change in circumstance or condition. And all of whom somehow magically agree on their mutual goals and the means of achieving them, and spell out identical terms in said contracts. And nobody living in between these happy neighbors disagrees or opts out or otherwise gets in the way. This is totally unrealistic even when we restrict the scenario exclusively to self defense. It becomes ludicrous when we try to apply it to all the disparate elements of a modern society. We once had a thread here about some poor schmuck whose house burned down in a fire that his own family member set, which became uncontrolled because of his family’s rather casual approach to property maintenance. The guy had “opted out” of the pay for services model of fire department available in his town, and the fire brigade stood by and watched his single wide go up (or down?) in flames. The libertarians among us were praising this as a model of self determination. Us liberal socialist hippies decried the stupidity of an opt-out option which could and did result in the destruction of this man’s life. (He didn’t have insurance to replace the family home, either, as I recall. I do not know what the family did about living accommodations, nor if they had to move away, possibly giving up jobs or separating family members. However you cut it, though, everybody involved was pretty roundly screwed.) What exactly is it about this freedom to destroy one’s own life through mistake or mischance that is so desirable, given the personal tragedy involved as well as the societal upheaval such tragedies result in? Yes, this was just one family in one town, but multiply it by thousands or tens of thousands of people and it boggles the mind. (I survived Hurricane Andrew in Miami, so I have some personal knowledge of unexpected devastation.) I have absolutely zero desire to be as privatized as that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/794 "2011-10-27T21:46:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A lot. Is that your objection? How many do you think you’re signing today? Non-answer. Try again. Also, how many people in a Libertarian society do you suppose will be well-versed in contract law? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/795 "2011-10-27T21:48:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many different contracts do you suppose would have to be signed to live in a typical Libertarian community? And if you don’t sign those contracts, your life is forfeit. Freedom! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/796 "2011-10-27T21:48:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I already told you, there are more “good guys” than “bad guys”. Not in a libertarian society. In a libertarian society most people will be amoral predators, or it wouldn’t stay a libertarian society; decent people would create something that isn’t based on the law of the jungle. > [@Terr](#): > > And the thousands of people around you, in order not to be intimidated by you, will get together and oppose you. And there are more of them than there are of you. Organization beats numbers. And if those greater numbers organize to protect themselves and keep order - that’s a government. > [@Terr](#): > > Libertarian society does. It allows the majority of the “good guys” to stop the “bad guys” from running wild. Hardly; libertarianism is about ensuring that the good are the victims of the bad. It is about taking away all recourse for people who are victimized by the wealthy and powerful. > [@Terr](#): > > It is a heavily armed society that prevents “bad guys” running wild. No, Israel is a society kept in order by a powerful and heavily armed government. > [@Terr](#): > > We’re not talking about a couple of guys with 22s. We’re talking thousand heavily armed citizens. Like the people of Iraq. That didn’t keep Saddam from tyrannizing them, or us from conquering them. Organization trumps numbers and guns. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/797 "2011-10-27T21:49:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Also, how many people in a Libertarian society do you suppose will be well-versed in contract law? Well, all the survivors, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/798 "2011-10-27T21:50:48Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > In what way does Israel parallel Libertopia or otherwise demonstrate that your fantasy world could possibly come true? You don’t really think that Israelis routinely engage in one-on-one armed self defense against transgressors of their property rights, do you? Yeah… Israeli gun control laws are far more draconian than anywhere in the U.S. Believe me, we are in no way, shape or form a libertarian country. We’d all be dead years ago if we were. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/799 "2011-10-27T21:50:59Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > What exactly is it about this freedom to destroy one’s own life through mistake or mischance that is so desirable, given the personal tragedy involved as well as the societal upheaval such tragedies result in? Yes, this was just one family in one town, but multiply it by thousands or tens of thousands of people and it boggles the mind. (I survived Hurricane Andrew in Miami, so I have some personal knowledge of unexpected devastation.) I have absolutely zero desire to be as privatized as that. I suspect that most Libertarians believe that bad things won’t happen to _them_, and the ability to refuse all help to others who have had bad things happen is just the icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/800 "2011-10-27T21:51:03Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Well, all the survivors, apparently. Evolution! Libertaria will natural select for skill in contract law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=41)