# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/801 "2011-10-27T21:54:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Israel - an example of a peaceful heavily armed society that stops “bad guys running wild” today. And I mean _REALLY_ bad guys running wild. In Israel, participation in the military is mandated by the state for all citizens over 18. Are you sure that’s the example of Libertopia you really want to put forward? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/802 "2011-10-27T21:54:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah… Israeli gun control laws are far more draconian than anywhere in the U.S. Believe me, we are in no way, shape or form a libertarian country. We’d all be dead years ago if we were. That would be pretty much true regardless of your problems with the Palestinians and so forth. As a libertarian society you’d do it to _yourself_ if there was no one else around to do it for you. The war of all against all isn’t likely to leave many survivors. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/803 "2011-10-27T21:56:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There are more good guys than bad guys…that’s what makes human civilization possible at all. > > There are, however, enough bad guys that some government is necessary. The libertarians here have emphasized that they don’t favor anarchy. I am sympathetic to the argument for less government. But I am extremely dubious about their notions of a massive restructuring of our fundamental form of government. > > I’ll listen to libertarians when they talk about repealing motorcycle helmet laws. > > When they start trying to fund government on donations, they lose me, fast. > > Trinopus I know that you know this, **Trinopus** , but the problem with this way of thinking about the world isn’t the relative proportion of “good guys” to “bad guys.” It’s that there aren’t “good” and “bad” guys. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/804 "2011-10-27T21:59:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wonderful fantasy. Nothing to do with any kind of reality, but great fantasy. Of course, they are also a monopoly, and have no competition, right? Of course they’re not a monopoly!! Perish the thought. Of course as mentioned, they do have contractual obligations with other security firms in the country not to infringe on each others market area. All perfectly legal - both parties agree and contracts are signed. Plus, so what about monopolies anyway? Do you want the government to interfer and break up companies, the same way the did when [The justice dept filed suit against At&T](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_System_divestiture)? That evil government interfered with a good business, and forced them against their will to break up into 7 different competing companies. You’re not going to tell me that in Libertopia, some overreaching entity will break companies up if it is deemed they are too big? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/805 "2011-10-27T22:32:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I suspect that most Libertarians believe that bad things won’t happen to _them_, and the ability to refuse all help to others who have had bad things happen is just the icing on the cake. I suspect further that Libertarians have not had unjustified devastatingly bad things happen to them – _yet_. Those who have are no longer Libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/806 "2011-10-27T23:12:28Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Thousands of citizens all of whom opt in using individual contracts, each of which have to be re-negotiated for every change in circumstance or condition. And all of whom somehow magically agree on their mutual goals and the means of achieving them, and spell out identical terms in said contracts. And nobody living in between these happy neighbors disagrees or opts out or otherwise gets in the way. Yes. And no, most contracts will be boilerplate. Like they are today. > [@](#): > > This is totally unrealistic even when we restrict the scenario exclusively to self defense. It becomes ludicrous when we try to apply it to all the disparate elements of a modern society. Because you say so. > [@](#): > > What exactly is it about this freedom to destroy one’s own life through mistake or mischance that is so desirable, given the personal tragedy involved as well as the societal upheaval such tragedies result in? What exactly is so desirable about the government being your parent, knowing better than you do what’s good for you and forcing that on you? Have you ever grown up? Don’t you want to be an adult? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/807 "2011-10-27T23:13:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Non-answer. Try again. > Also, how many people in a Libertarian society do you suppose will be well-versed in contract law? As many as interest themselves in it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/808 "2011-10-27T23:16:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not in a libertarian society. In a libertarian society most people will be amoral predators, or it wouldn’t stay a libertarian society; decent people would create something that isn’t based on the law of the jungle. … because you say so. > [@](#): > > Organization beats numbers. And if those greater numbers organize to protect themselves and keep order - that’s a government. No. It is a voluntary association of citizens. There is a difference. > [@](#): > > Hardly; libertarianism is about ensuring that the good are the victims of the bad. It is about taking away all recourse for people who are victimized by the wealthy and powerful. Because you say so. > [@](#): > > No, Israel is a society kept in order by a powerful and heavily armed government. I lived there. I know how it works. And I know how many terrorists were stopped by people in the street shooting them down. With no government involvement except after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/809 "2011-10-27T23:18:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because you say so. You keep saying this. You might want to think about why people keep saying things you’d prefer not to believe are true. > [@Terr](#): > > What exactly is so desirable about the government being your parent, knowing better than you do what’s good for you and forcing that on you? Have you ever grown up? Don’t you want to be an adult? Please give current, real-world examples of the government acting as your (yes, you, not some hypothetical person) parent today, right now. And I’m arbitrarily going to take drug prohibition off the table, as plenty of non-libertarians will say that it’s a failed policy. > [@Terr](#): > > No. It is a voluntary association of citizens. There is a difference. A government is a voluntary association of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/810 "2011-10-27T23:27:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. And no, most contracts will be boilerplate. Like they are today.Because you say so. > What exactly is so desirable about the government being your parent, knowing better than you do what’s good for you and forcing that on you? Have you ever grown up? Don’t you want to be an adult? Here, just sign this employment contract. Yes, now. What? Don’t worry, it’s all just boilerplate, Initial the bottom of pages 3, 5, 16 and 18 please. You want what? Time to read it? Do you want this job or not? Are you saying you don’t trust me? Just sign and let’s move on here. Thank you. Now take your shoes off, give me your iphone and bend over. See page 5. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/811 "2011-10-27T23:27:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > In Israel, participation in the military is mandated by the state for all citizens over 18. > > Are you sure that’s the example of Libertopia you really want to put forward? I was talking about heavily armed populace. Not participation in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/812 "2011-10-27T23:31:19Z")
Is your home being threatened by a heavily armed populace? Do you have a large sum of money? Then call EP’s security force company. Our cannon armed gunships and armored personnel carriers with shock troops will take care of those pesky peons bent on damaging your property. Free balloons for the kids! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/813 "2011-10-27T23:33:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I was talking about heavily armed populace. Not participation in the military. You said > [@Terr](#): > > Israel - an example of a peaceful heavily armed society that stops “bad guys running wild” today. And I mean _REALLY_ bad guys running wild. And one of the ways in which they stop bad guys running wild is by mandating military service. Which seems very contrary to libertarian principles. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/814 "2011-10-27T23:33:22Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > You keep saying this. You might want to think about why people keep saying things you’d prefer not to believe are true. Lots of people have all kinds of opinions. Doesn’t mean they are valid. > [@](#): > > Please give current, real-world examples of the government acting as your (yes, you, not some hypothetical person) parent today, right now. And I’m arbitrarily going to take drug prohibition off the table, as plenty of non-libertarians will say that it’s a failed policy. FDA. FAA. DEA. ATF. FCC. etc. > [@](#): > > A government is a voluntary association of citizens. Laughable. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/815 "2011-10-27T23:35:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Lots of people have all kinds of opinions. Doesn’t mean they are valid. Ever consider this might apply to you as well? > [@Terr](#): > > FDA. FAA. DEA. ATF. FCC. etc. How are any of those agencies acting as parents? > [@Terr](#): > > Laughable. But true. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/816 "2011-10-27T23:50:28Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > How are any of those agencies acting as parents? The parent protects you from yourself. You may want to do something, but you’re too young or stupid to know what’s good for you, so the parent has to either limit you or decide for you what you should do. That’s what those agencies do. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/817 "2011-10-27T23:58:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You probably meant XDR-TB (since there are no google hits on EARTB). XDR-TB is not “invariably (and painfully) lethal”, it can be cured and this: [Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensively_drug-resistant_tuberculosis) says there are 40,000 cases a year. > > Want me to use caps, so it gets through? I don’t think you read the cites, including your own (which is titled “Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis”) Apparently, in certain extremely rare circumstances, a sort of cure can maybe happen, but as your own cite says:“Treatment requires extensive chemotherapy for up to two years. Second-line drugs are more toxic than the standard anti-TB regimen and can cause a range of serious side-effects including hepatitis, depression and hallucinations. Patients are often hospitalised for long periods, in isolation. In addition, second-line drugs are extremely expensive compared with the cost of drugs for standard TB treatment.” and “XDR-TB is associated with a much higher mortality rate than MDR-TB, because of a reduced number of effective treatment options”. Do you somehow imagine that this regime is going to be of much use in the Third World, where most of the new cases are being reported? Or do you just not give a shit what happens to the “stupid schmucks”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/818 "2011-10-28T00:03:59Z")
> [@Mapache](#): > > I don’t think you read the cites, including your own (which is titled “Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis”) > > Apparently, in certain extremely rare circumstances, a sort of cure can maybe happen Is 48% recovery rate “certain extremely rare circumstances”? And what - no comment on 40K cases worldwide after you claimed millions? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/819 "2011-10-28T00:16:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The parent protects you from yourself. You may want to do something, but you’re too young or stupid to know what’s good for you, so the parent has to either limit you or decide for you what you should do. That’s what those agencies do. How do they do that? When the FDA, for example, looks at what food is safe or not, they’re not telling you what to eat. That’s not a parent. Ok, maybe the FAA says you can’t just fly planes whenever and wherever you want, but if there was no control, there’d be a lot more crashes. If that’s acting like a parent, then so is putting up a stop sign. What business of the government’s is it if you stop or not? ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/820 "2011-10-28T00:25:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is 48% recovery rate “certain extremely rare circumstances”? > > And what - no comment on 40K cases worldwide after you claimed millions? If you would read the above quote from your own cite, you may notice that successful treatment is extremely expensive, very long term, and has severe side effects. And;. “Effective treatment requires that all six classes of second-line drugs be available to clinicians who have special expertise in treating such cases” .So yes, it is extremely rare. And you seem to think that if only a little more than half of the patients, those who can afford the treatment and the two or more years of hospitalization, die is a worthwhile tradeoff for your precious freedom to buy medications without a prescription. As far as the “millions” are concerned, your figure of 40,000 cases per year was from 2004, when the epidemic was just beginning. Things are a lot worse now, and getting even more worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=42)