# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/841 "2011-10-28T05:01:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I did. She said that no, those are not antibiotics. They are anti-TB drugs. TB is caused by strains of mycobacteria. The drugs used to kill this mycobactria (anti-TB drugs) are antibiotics. Technically, the term antibiotic was used in the distant past to denote drugs derived from one type of micro-organism that killed other micro-organisms (eg penicillin). The term is now used to denote many kinds of anti-bacterial drugs, both natural and synthetic. Bacteria such as TB can develop a resistance to many of these antibiotics. Tell me, is your wife a naturopath or a chiropractor? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/842 "2011-10-28T05:04:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or they’d just be told by their boss to buy the junk that his brother is selling, or lose their jobs. That would be at the bottom of page 8 of the “boilerplate” contract, just after the clause that allows your boss to take one of your kidneys if he needs it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/843 "2011-10-28T05:11:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok, I will change it. Just because you say so, it ain’t so. Still not a useful answer, as I’m sure you know. > [@Terr](#): > > No. It would be a private organization most probably. Or if it was a government one, it would exist from sale of those reports. In other words it would be utterly corrupt and useless. It would exist to make a profit, it would produce reports that said what the highest bidder wants them to say. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/844 "2011-10-28T05:27:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I flat out don’t believe any such thing. It sounds much more plausible that you are just defining anyone brown who gets shot as a terrorist and using that as “evidence” of the effectiveness of random guys with guns against terrorism. The reports I have seen were in Hebrew. But here are some in English: > **[Jerusalem bulldozer terrorist buried](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3581842,00.html)** > > Security forces allow Ghassan Abu Tir's family to hold midnight service in their village. Only 10 family members allowed to attend Abu Tir, who was employed as a bulldozer driver at a Jerusalem construction site, went on a rampage in mid-July, injuring 18 people. He was shot dead by two bystanders. [http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm](http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm) Apr 07, 1994 - Yishai Gadassi, age 32, of Kvutzat Yavne, was shot and killed at a hitchhiking post at the Ashdod junction by a member of HAMAS. The terrorist was killed by bystanders at the scene. [http://news.sky.com/home/article/1044602](http://news.sky.com/home/article/1044602) (or [http://www.newspaperarchive.com/SiteMap/FreePdfPreview.aspx?img=104009105](http://www.newspaperarchive.com/SiteMap/FreePdfPreview.aspx?img=104009105)) A Palestinian was shot dead in a supermarket in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank after reportedly attempting to set off an explosion. “A terrorist who apparently had an explosives belt came into the store and tried to detonate a bomb in the bread section,” supermarket manager Eli Shiran told Israel Radio from the settlement of Efrat, near Jerusalem. “Immediately afterward, a customer drew his gun and fired. (The Palestinian) tried to escape. He was shot again and killed,” Mr Shiran said. > **[Moscow-Pullman Daily News - Google News Archive Search](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2026&dat=19940407&id=Bb0jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tNAFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4769,661210&hl=en)** A Palestinian opened fire with a submachine gun at a bus stop near the port of Ashdod today, killing one Israeli and wounding four before being shot to death by bystanders, officials said. > **[2008 Jerusalem BMW attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_BMW_attack)** > > On 22 September 2008, a Palestinian drove a BMW saloon car into a group of civilians and off-duty soldiers in a terrorist ramming attack in Jerusalem, injuring 19 people. Stratfor Global Intelligence analysts say this attack represents a new terrorist tactic which is less lethal but could prove more difficult to prevent than suicide bombing. > The attack was a third in a series of terrorist attacks in Jerusalem involving a new tactic, using vehicles as weapons; the others were the 2 July 2008 J... Mughrabi was shot dead at the scene[5] by off-duty soldier Lt. Elad Amar. Amar told Army Radio that the attacker “drove towards the soldiers at top speed, plowed onto the traffic island, ran over soldiers and civilians and then continued, ramming into a building. At that point I assessed that it was a terror attack and decided to neutralize the driver so that he wouldn’t be able to reverse the car and continue the attack.”[6] ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/845 "2011-10-28T05:29:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > TB is caused by strains of mycobacteria. The drugs used to kill this mycobactria (anti-TB drugs) are antibiotics. Technically, the term antibiotic was used in the distant past to denote drugs derived from one type of micro-organism that killed other micro-organisms (eg penicillin). The term is now used to denote many kinds of anti-bacterial drugs, both natural and synthetic. > > Bacteria such as TB can develop a resistance to many of these antibiotics. > > Tell me, is your wife a naturopath or a chiropractor? A GP. And no, she said she had never heard those anti-TB referred to as antibiotics. And I noticed everyone is carefully avoiding what I said, so I will repeat it - as I said before, since “Mapache” was claiming that government intervention would somehow fix the TB situation - exactly how do you propose the government stop this? Legislate taking the drugs for the full 6 months +? Put people under government supervision while they are taking those drugs? You know - arrest them, and force them to take the drugs? Because otherwise there will always be people who stop taking them and there goes your drug-resistant TB. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/846 "2011-10-28T05:58:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A GP. And no, she said she had never heard those anti-TB referred to as antibiotics. While it may be more technically correct to refer to “drug resistant tuburculosis”, it is a matter of semantics. I don’t think you can argue that it’s better if TB is “drug resistant” compared to “antibiotic resistant” The point remains the same. > [@Terr](#): > > And I noticed everyone is carefully avoiding what I said, so I will repeat it - as I said before, since “Mapache” was claiming that government intervention would somehow fix the TB situation - exactly how do you propose the government stop this? Legislate taking the drugs for the full 6 months +? Put people under government supervision while they are taking those drugs? You know - arrest them, and force them to take the drugs? Because otherwise there will always be people who stop taking them and there goes your drug-resistant TB. I think you’re a little off on your accusation there. I don’t recall a claim that “government intervention would fix the TB situation”. Rather, it was brought up as an example of a situation that became bad because of very lax controls over the TB antibiotics (or drugs if you prefer). Having doctors in charge of prescribing, and a licenced pharmacist in charge of dispensing goes a long way in ensuring proper protocols are met. Of course, some patients will not follow directions, even in our (regulated) society. We’re not willing to go the route of arresting/forcing folks. You see, it’s not a black/white situation. It’s not either full government control or none whatsoever. This is what you continually fail to grasp. It does not have to be all one way or all the other way. We can (and do!) take the middle road with regulations and government oversight most of the time. Ask your wife (who is a physician) what she thinks about a system that would allow patients to buy antibiotics anytime they felt like it, with no visit to a doctor, and no idea if they had a bacterial infection. Imagine TV advertising for powerful antibiotics and selling them over the counter. Does she think this might lead to bad consequences for public health? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/847 "2011-10-28T06:21:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > . . . it’s not a black/white situation. It’s not either full government control or none whatsoever. This is what you continually fail to grasp. It does not have to be all one way or all the other way. We can (and do!) take the middle road with regulations and government oversight most of the time. . . . Right! Also, we know – have known since long before 1787! – that governments have the power to do harm, and that’s why the U.S. Constitution is so clever, in dividing up government power, forcing it to compromise with itself, to make it harder for tyranny to get a foothold. The libertarians are right, to some degree, in distrusting government. But they err drastically on the side of weakening it, thus taking away its legitimate and good purposes. If people could “opt out” of welfare, for instance, the rich certainly would – they don’t need it! The people who do need it wouldn’t have the funds to opt in! There would be no welfare program at all, and poverty would return to the Dickensian horrors seen in long-ago days. (And Dickens’ era wasn’t all that long ago, either!) The libertarians consistently fail to realize that our lives are better today because of the government we’ve instituted. We use it as a tool to solve problems. It’s a sharp tool. A dangerous tool. A “power tool.” It has to be used carefully, and watched closely. But it seems really foolish to want to return to an era of hand tools, just because power tools can be dangerous! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/848 "2011-10-28T07:10:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You are aware that tuberculosis drugs are not antibiotics, right? Actually, I do know that. I just assumed you had made an error and was thinking about pointing it out. But honestly, you’ve made so many errors that I figured I could let a few of the minor ones slide by. Everything that’s been said about the misuse of antibiotics also applies to the misuse of antibacterials, antifungals, antivirals, and antiprotozoals. So leaving aside the minor details of terminology, you’re still wrong on the general principle. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/849 "2011-10-28T12:14:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The libertarians consistently fail to realize that our lives are better today because of the government we’ve instituted. We use it as a tool to solve problems. It’s a sharp tool. A dangerous tool. A “power tool.” It has to be used carefully, and watched closely. But it seems really foolish to want to return to an era of hand tools, just because power tools can be dangerous! This is what I find most puzzling about Libertarianism (particularly the extreme end pushed by Terr). It shows no acknowledgement of the history of the human race, of the horrors that have been committed by man because there was nobody to stop them, of the mix of life-long drudgery and abject misery that was the life of the average person up until relatively recently (and still is in many parts of the word). How do Libertarian’s think we ended up with our democratically elected representative governments? Did we just wake up one morning with food-safety regulations and law-and-order? No, we have the government we do now because at every stage along the way it has been an improvement to what we had before. So why do Libertarians want to take us all back to pre-feudal societal organisation so that we can go through the whole miserable process again? Oh, Freedom. The freedom to watch my own back, the freedom to be poisoned by a restaurant, the freedom to be exploited by anyone with more money or power? I say we just let them fuck off to an island somewhere and have it out, _Lord of the Flies_ style. It should make a decent reality TV program too. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/850 "2011-10-28T15:16:37Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > I say we just let them fuck off to an island somewhere and have it out, _Lord of the Flies_ style. It should make a decent reality TV program too. The first 12 weeks would be _Libertopia-The Contract Negotiations_. Edited to add: The second 12 weeks would be _Libertopia-The Lawsuits_. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/851 "2011-10-28T15:34:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think you’re a little off on your accusation there. I don’t recall a claim that “government intervention would fix the TB situation”. Rather, it was brought up as an example of a situation that became bad because of very lax controls over the TB antibiotics (or drugs if you prefer). Having doctors in charge of prescribing, and a licenced pharmacist in charge of dispensing goes a long way in ensuring proper protocols are met. Yes, because you can force someone to finish his course of treatment. > [@](#): > > Of course, some patients will not follow directions, even in our (regulated) society. We’re not willing to go the route of arresting/forcing folks. You see, it’s not a black/white situation. It’s not either full government control or none whatsoever. You’re killing (according to the guy) millions of people. At least that’s what he accused the libertarians of. But it seems that it’s not the libertarian approach that is killing them. It’s yours. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/852 "2011-10-28T16:50:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The first 12 weeks would be _Libertopia-The Contract Negotiations_. > Edited to add: The second 12 weeks would be _Libertopia-The Lawsuits_. What lawsuits? I got 51% of the people to help me take over the island and offer the other 49% the exciting opportunity to work in my razor boomerang factory. There’s not enough of them to fight back, and they can’t sue since I appointed myself judge, jury, and executioner. But they’re free to go live on the part of the island that I don’t own. Unfortunately it’s currently occupied by escaped lunatics and rabid bears. But hey, that’s better than having to deal with oppressive Big Daddy government agencies like the FAA always telling you when and where you can fly your plane, right? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/853 "2011-10-29T05:17:12Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > . . . But they’re free to go live on the part of the island that I don’t own. There’s a part of the island you don’t own? That isn’t a guaranteed condition in libertopia: I would worry that every square inch is owned by someone, and if I don’t own enough land to make a living from, then I will quickly fall into debt, and thereby debt-slavery. (Against which there are no laws in libertopia. Of course, I’m free to refuse to enter into debt-slavery…but dying of starvation is usually worse…) > [@](#): > > Unfortunately it’s currently occupied by escaped lunatics and rabid bears. And manshonyaggers. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/854 "2011-10-29T07:48:43Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Cite for this bullshit? The Dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/855 "2011-10-29T08:27:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Israel - an example of a peaceful heavily armed society that stops “bad guys running wild” today. And I mean _REALLY_ bad guys running wild. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either Israel is a peaceful society, or it is a society that is heavily armed (by the government) because it faces terrorist attacks, which means it’s not peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/856 "2011-10-29T14:03:31Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either Israel is a peaceful society, or it is a society that is heavily armed (by the government) because it faces terrorist attacks, which means it’s not peaceful. The homicide rate in Israel, INCLUDING terrorist attacks, is 1/3 that of US. And less than that in Finland or New Zealand. Vast majority of homicides is terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/857 "2011-10-29T14:06:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The homicide rate in Israel, INCLUDING terrorist attacks, is 1/3 that of US. And less than that in Finland or New Zealand. Vast majority of homicides is terrorism. So what? Why do you keep on bringing up Israel when the discussion is supposed to be about Libertarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/858 "2011-10-29T15:51:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, because you can force someone to finish his course of treatment. > You’re killing (according to the guy) millions of people. At least that’s what he accused the libertarians of. But it seems that it’s not the libertarian approach that is killing them. It’s yours. You see, we don’t live in this made up land of yours where the government forces people to finish their medication, presumably by putting cameras in our medicine cabinets and tracking devices up our urethras. The land of government controlling every aspect of our lives exists only in your fertile imagination, and in books by authors of questionable sanity. Back here in the real world, we have reached a compromise between freedom and regulation. A compromise that the majority of people like just fine, thank you very much. Our compromise is not perfect- perhaps more regulations would save people. However, we have deemed in these cases that we value our personal freedom more, and reject overly restrictive or invasive regulation. The ironic thing is that libertarians such as yourself then seize on the fact that we compromise between regulation and freedom and say “See!! These regulations are not 100% perfect, so we should throw them out alltogether!” Essentially, you are advocating that we swing the pendulum far, far to the libertarian side of the equation (no regulations at all) from the middle of the road (reasonable regulations + individual freedom) . You do this by painting the middle as the far end on the other side. (all regulation, no freedom) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/859 "2011-10-29T15:58:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You see, we don’t live in this made up land of yours where the government forces people to finish their medication, presumably by putting cameras in our medicine cabinets and tracking devices up our urethras. You are willing to violate people’s freedom in order to promote “public health” on one case. But you’re not willing to violate people’s freedom in order to promote “public health” in the other case. Why? Because in the other case supposedly the violation is “too high”. Well, libertarians move the “too high” line much lower. But - in principle - how exactly is your stance in case of not forcing people to finish their antibiotics treatment different from the libertarian stance? > [@](#): > > However, we have deemed in these cases that we value our personal freedom more, and reject overly restrictive or invasive regulation. How “libertarian” of you. > [@](#): > > Essentially, you are advocating that we swing the pendulum far, far to the libertarian side of the equation (no regulations at all) from the middle of the road (reasonable regulations + individual freedom) . You do this by painting the middle as the far end on the other side. (all regulation, no freedom) You’re willing to trade your freedom for safety (however imaginary that safety is, in my opinion). That’s the slave’s mentality I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/860 "2011-10-29T15:59:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what? Why do you keep on bringing up Israel when the discussion is supposed to be about Libertarianism? As an example of a heavily armed peaceful society. You know, the kind that is not supposed to exist. Because, according to some people in this thread, when people are armed, they shoot at the slightest provocation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=44)