# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/921 "2011-10-29T20:56:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you not support the right of the people to select their own form of government? Yes. That is why I am all for people voluntarily forming associations within which they would practice whatever form of government they choose. Voluntarily. Signed contracts where the obligations of the person and his rights are fully and explicitly defined, and the same for the government. Let a thousand flowers bloom, stars shine, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/922 "2011-10-29T20:58:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. That is why I am all for people voluntarily forming associations within which they would practice whatever form of government they choose. Let a thousand flowers bloom, stars shine, or whatever. Throughout history, they have…and it seems that none so far have chosen Libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/923 "2011-10-29T21:02:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Throughout history, they have…and it seems that none so far have chosen Libertarianism. No. Throughout history, there were no such associations. Read what I posted again. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/924 "2011-10-29T21:09:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Silly question. Of course she wants people to go to a doctor. She’s a doctor. What would you expect? That was not my question. I did not ask you if she wants clients. I asked if she thought that antibiotics should be freely available at any time, over the counter, to people who were not diagnosed as needing them. Does she think that this is a good idea for public health? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/925 "2011-10-29T21:17:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > LOL. Yes, all those supporters you personally have won over. Well, speaking for myself, I’ve probably not personally “won over” many supporters who are now against libertarianism. But then again, I’ve probably not personally convinced many people to not put red hot needles in their eyes. It’s self-evident to most folks. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/926 "2011-10-29T21:25:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. That is why I am all for people voluntarily forming associations within which they would practice whatever form of government they choose. Voluntarily. Signed contracts where the obligations of the person and his rights are fully and explicitly defined, and the same for the government. And these contracts remain immutable, static and unchanging, from the moment this society is conceived? Or do you envision some process for gaining the consent of the governed to make changes when unanticipated conflicts between personal freedoms arise? And at what age would children sign these contracts? What if they refuse? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/927 "2011-10-29T22:18:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Someone claimed that in a heavily armed society people would be shooting each other at the slightest provocation. I will quote from “kenetic”: “Right, because a society where everyone’s heavily armed and doesn’t hesitate to start shooting at the slightest provocation would be so peaceful.” > > I showed Israel as an example of a heavily armed peaceful society. People who “keep going on” about it are you and others. Apparently it just sticks in your craw. I like how you quote me and still manage to “misunderstand” what I said. FTR, I have nothing against responsible private gun ownership. From my conversations with gun rights advocates I feel confident in saying that’s not their primary goal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/928 "2011-10-29T22:26:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That was not my question. I did not ask you if she wants clients. > > I asked if she thought that antibiotics should be freely available at any time, over the counter, to people who were not diagnosed as needing them. Does she think that this is a good idea for public health? Of course she thinks it’s a good idea for public health. So do I. I just think since it restricts people’s freedom it should not be done. My wife is not a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/929 "2011-10-29T22:28:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And these contracts remain immutable, static and unchanging, from the moment this society is conceived? Or do you envision some process for gaining the consent of the governed to make changes when unanticipated conflicts between personal freedoms arise? Yes. You know how contracts are changed? With the consent of both parties. > [@](#): > > And at what age would children sign these contracts? What if they refuse? At the age of consent. And if they refuse, they don’t live in that community and do not follow those rules. Just like anyone else. What’s the age of consent? That would have to be set by the whole society, since it is part of the “inalienable rights” thing - they only fully apply at that age and higher. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/930 "2011-10-29T22:32:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. You know how contracts are changed? With the consent of both parties. But in Libertopia, you don’t have just two parties. What happens when one man’s individual liberty conflicts with another man’s individual liberty? How can you change the contract and preserve the liberty of both? > [@](#): > > At the age of consent. And if they refuse, they don’t live in that community and do not follow those rules. Just like anyone else. So they would be exiled? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/931 "2011-10-29T22:36:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But in Libertopia, you don’t have just two parties. What happens when one man’s individual liberty conflicts with another man’s individual liberty? How can you change the contract and preserve the liberty of both?So they would be exiled? Libertarian society is not an anarchy. There would be an overarching authority, which would be responsible for enforcing the individual’s rights (again, rights as I explained them before) are not trampled. It would also enforce the contracts. And yes, they would be “exiled” from that particular community if they cannot agree with how the community is run. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/932 "2011-10-29T22:50:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Libertarian society is not an anarchy. There would be an overarching authority, which would be responsible for enforcing the individual’s rights (again, rights as I explained them before) are not trampled. So there is no situation you could imagine where one man’s individual liberty conflicts with another man’s individual liberty? One of them is going to get trampled. > [@](#): > > It would also enforce the contracts. And yes, they would be “exiled” from that particular community if they cannot agree with how the community is run. So if a community agrees to a set of laws (let’s call it a constitution), and a new adult refuses to agree to those terms, he can be exiled?? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/933 "2011-10-29T22:58:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So there is no situation you could imagine where one man’s individual liberty conflicts with another man’s individual liberty? One of them is going to get trampled. Of course there is. That’s what the court system is fo. > [@](#): > > So if a community agrees to a set of laws (let’s call it a constitution), and a new adult refuses to agree to those terms, he can be exiled?? Yes. Of course, what you call “exile” and what I call “exile” may be two completely different things. You probably think about forceful expulsion. I am thinking of not being able to participate in the community’s benefits because only contract-signers can do so. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/934 "2011-10-29T23:02:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course there is. That’s what the court system is fo. So, it is acceptable to trample on a man’s individual liberty, if the court says so? > [@](#): > > Yes. Of course, what you call “exile” and what I call “exile” may be two completely different things. You probably think about forceful expulsion. I am thinking of not being able to participate in the community’s benefits because only contract-signers can do so. Things like driving on public roads, or using the public broadcast spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/935 "2011-10-29T23:19:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, it is acceptable to trample on a man’s individual liberty, if the court says so? Things like driving on public roads, or using the public broadcast spectrum? Unless you want anarchy, you have to resolve conflicts between rights. What you consider “rights”, though, the libertarian society wouldn’t. As for “driving on public roads” as an example - yes. The residents would do that for free (if that is how the society is set up). The visitors would pay the use fees. Or the community may feel magnanimous and allow visitors to use it for free as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/936 "2011-10-29T23:22:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Unless you want anarchy, you have to resolve conflicts between rights. What you consider “rights”, though, the libertarian society wouldn’t. In Libertopia, who owns the radio frequency spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/937 "2011-10-29T23:27:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In Libertopia, who owns the radio frequency spectrum? The guy with the most powerful transmitter? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/938 "2011-10-29T23:29:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course she thinks it’s a good idea for public health. So do I. I just think since it restricts people’s freedom it should not be done. My wife is not a libertarian. So… You seem to understand that unfettered access to antibiotics would lead to poor public health outcomes. So your ideology of “freedom” would trump the public’s overall health. The freedom for you to take whatever medication you feel like (even if it does you no good) would trump my right to health and life. This is truly setting ideology above common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/939 "2011-10-29T23:31:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In Libertopia, who owns the radio frequency spectrum? What Lobohan said. You keep trying the “gotcha” stuff. No, this is not a “gotcha”. After a few “frequency turf wars”, things will get sorted out. Because completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/940 "2011-10-29T23:31:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course she thinks it’s a good idea for public health. So do I. I just think since it restricts people’s freedom it should not be done. My wife is not a libertarian. The term for that is “Dead Right”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=48)