# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/941 "2011-10-29T23:33:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So… > > You seem to understand that unfettered access to antibiotics would lead to poor public health outcomes. So… you seem to understand that not finishing the course of antibiotics would lead to poor public health outcomes. > [@](#): > > So your ideology of “freedom” would trump the public’s overall health. The freedom for you to take whatever medication you feel like (even if it does you no good) would trump my right to health and life. So your ideology of “freedom” would trump the public’s overall health. The freedom for you to stop taking the medication whenever you feel like it would trump my right to health and life. > [@](#): > > This is truly setting ideology above common sense. Same with your attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/942 "2011-10-29T23:38:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What Lobohan said. > > You keep trying the “gotcha” stuff. No, this is not a “gotcha”. After a few “frequency turf wars”, things will get sorted out. Because completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. It’s totally a gotcha! There are some people to whom no usable radio frequencies is desirable. Such a person would refuse to sign the social compact, and would broadcast a powerful “jamming” signal, preventing anyone else from using radio frequencies for communication. Since he hasn’t signed the agreement binding himself to your rules, you can’t stop him without initiating force against him – and if you do that, how, then, do you differ from any other government? Trinopus (refuses to sign the contract promising not to break wind in public…) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/943 "2011-10-29T23:39:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What Lobohan said. > > You keep trying the “gotcha” stuff. No, this is not a “gotcha”. After a few “frequency turf wars”, things will get sorted out. Not without imposing order from some sort of authority that tramples on someone’s individual liberty. > [@](#): > > Because completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. Welcome to Libertopia, where you get your news on the telegraph! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/944 "2011-10-29T23:51:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So… you seem to understand that not finishing the course of antibiotics would lead to poor public health outcomes. Yes, this is not in dispute and never has been. > [@Terr](#): > > So your ideology of “freedom” would trump the public’s overall health. The freedom for you to stop taking the medication whenever you feel like it would trump my right to health and life. Oh, you’re getting close! This is the compromise that we as a society have come up with for this particular case. Neither totalitarianism, where we have “drug police” that sit in your house and force you to take your prescription each day, NOR do we have a total libertarian system, where we can take whatever we like, willy-nillly. It’s a compromise. We like this compromise between rights for ourselves and responsibilities toward others, and there is little desire to shift to EITHER full totalitarianism (which nobody here wants) OR full libertarianism as you are espousing here. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/945 "2011-10-30T00:08:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What Lobohan said. > > You keep trying the “gotcha” stuff. No, this is not a “gotcha”. After a few “frequency turf wars”, things will get sorted out. Because completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. So I guess we can add “tragedy of the commons” to the list of things you’re unaware of. And seriously “thing will get sorted out”? That’s the best you can offer? How about a more detailed answer like “I’m throwing out a vague answer because I don’t want to admit that’s almost certainly another area in which my theoretical system will be unable to cope with reality.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/946 "2011-10-30T00:28:07Z")
Another footnote to an “armed society.” In February, Swiss voters defeated a referendum to stockpile military firearms in armories, as opposed to keeping them in private houses. The reason was that young men were using these weapons…to kill themselves. Switzerland has a higher suicide rate than the European average, and many of these deaths might be preventable by taking guns out of homes. Also, there isn’t that much of a threat of invasion from foreign armies. Just sayin’… Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/947 "2011-10-30T00:29:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s totally a gotcha! There are some people to whom no usable radio frequencies is desirable. Such a person would refuse to sign the social compact, and would broadcast a powerful “jamming” signal, preventing anyone else from using radio frequencies for communication. Of course. Because you know so many people who are willing to spend a fortune just to buy equipment that would jam a certain radio frequency. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/948 "2011-10-30T00:30:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not without imposing order from some sort of authority that tramples on someone’s individual liberty. No. Imposing order by a self-regulatory authority. Without trampling rights. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/949 "2011-10-30T00:31:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What Lobohan said. > > You keep trying the “gotcha” stuff. No, this is not a “gotcha”. After a few “frequency turf wars”, things will get sorted out. Because completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. So if a person with a better transmitter doesn’t like what you’re saying they can silence your broadcast? That’s freedom? If a cable company doesn’t want to compete with wireless internet providers they can jam the competition? Ooo ooo what’s to stop the wired phone company from jamming mobile signals? Also I look forward to your response to this: > [@Trinopus](#): > > Purely anecdotal evidence…but…a friend of mine, flat broke, has severe cataracts, which are getting worse. On his way to being blind. He doesn’t have enough rich friends to pay for the necessary surgery, and he has no family. He just qualified for public assistance and will get the surgery, preventing him from going blind…thus retaining his ability to work, and, eventually, paying taxes. It is in the welfare agencies’ interest to spend a little money on him, now, rather than a lot of money later. > > A better U.S. health care program could also save a lot of money, treating diseases early rather than at the emergency-room stage. > > A measured amount of social safety-net saves money. > > Or, of course, we could just let people die. (Applause from certain segments of the audience…) > > Trinopus Say this person’s friend should have been left to being blind for lack of money. Do it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/950 "2011-10-30T00:31:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Because you know so many people who are willing to spend a fortune just to buy equipment that would jam a certain radio frequency. Why wouldn’t AT&T pay someone to jam Verizon’s wireless signal? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/951 "2011-10-30T00:32:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is the compromise that we as a society have come up with for this particular case. Just because you call it “compromise” does not change the fact that in this case, your “freedom” trumps the public health. You know the principle - “yes ma’am, you’re a whore, now we’re just haggling about the price”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/952 "2011-10-30T00:33:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So I guess we can add “tragedy of the commons” to the list of things you’re unaware of. > > And seriously “thing will get sorted out”? That’s the best you can offer? How about a more detailed answer like “I’m throwing out a vague answer because I don’t want to admit that’s almost certainly another area in which my theoretical system will be unable to cope with reality.” I don’t have to spell out everything. Certain things work themselves out. As I pointed out, completely unusable radio frequency spectrum is not worth anything to anyone. So those who want to use it will have to sit down and work it out. How they work it out is up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/953 "2011-10-30T00:35:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Why wouldn’t AT&T pay someone to jam Verizon’s wireless signal? Because Verizon would then jam AT&T’s wireless signal. It’s called MAD. Heard of it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/954 "2011-10-30T00:41:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Say this person’s friend should have been left to being blind for lack of money. Do it. Charities. Borrowing from friends. Fund raising campaign from friends/neighbors/whoever. Bake sales. Public soliciting of funds. See if you can think of other methods. Let me ask you a question since you keep asking me. Let’s say you know this guy who is going blind and the state would NOT pay for the procedure. Also all of the above methods did not bring in money. Are you willing to steal money to finance this guy’s procedure? Let’s stipulate that it is a “sure thing” - you won’t get caught. And let’s stipulate that you’re not stealing from a bank or a big corporation - but from some kind of fund where a bunch of normal people keep their money. Tell me you’re willing to steal for it. Do it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/955 "2011-10-30T00:43:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Why wouldn’t AT&T pay someone to jam Verizon’s wireless signal? I’m the post ninja! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/956 "2011-10-30T01:04:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because Verizon would then jam AT&T’s wireless signal. It’s called MAD. Heard of it? You didn’t answer about the cable company jamming wireless internet, and the wired phone company jamming mobile phones. What do they have to lose? Again, what if you’re using the signal to transmit speech someone else doesn’t like? Is it okay if they jam you? > [@Terr](#): > > Charities. Borrowing from friends. Fund raising campaign from friends/neighbors/whoever. Bake sales. Public soliciting of funds. See if you can think of other methods. Someone thought of UHC before I was born, and it’s both cheaper, and more effective. I endorse it. However obviously in your ideal society it wouldn’t exist. If private charity didn’t have the funds, should he be left blind? > [@](#): > > Let me ask you a question since you keep asking me. Let’s say you know this guy who is going blind and the state would NOT pay for the procedure. Also all of the above methods did not bring in money. Are you willing to steal money to finance this guy’s procedure? Let’s stipulate that it is a “sure thing” - you won’t get caught. And let’s stipulate that you’re not stealing from a bank or a big corporation - but from some kind of fund where a bunch of normal people keep their money. > > Tell me you’re willing to steal for it. Do it. That reminds of a story that was read to my class in kindergarten back in 1990. [The Trumpet of the Swan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trumpet_of_the_Swan). I’d completely forgotten about it since then, but it was a good story, and I thank you for reminding me of it. The question you pose is irrelevant since I feel taxes are a duty owed to society in return for it’s benefits (which include protection of rights). As to your question. Since I don’t know much about this pool of money, or the fellow going blind it would be a personal calculation based on loyalty and morality. For example if the pool of money was to be used for orphans, not touching it, bad karma. If it was closer to The Kitten Beating and Eating Club general fund, probably steal it without much guilt. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/957 "2011-10-30T01:09:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just because you call it “compromise” does not change the fact that in this case, your “freedom” trumps the public health. You know the principle - “yes ma’am, you’re a whore, now we’re just haggling about the price”. So you really, truly think that there are only 2 options here: 1. Totalitarian regime, where there are cameras in your house, and sensors in your medicine cabinet, where police are empowered by the state to force you to complete a course of antibiotics against your will. 2. Libertopia, where anyone can take any sort of antibiotics at any time for any reason, leading to an increased amount of deaths from antibiotic resistant bacteria, and ultimately to all antibiotics, antivirals, antifungicides being completely useless. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/958 "2011-10-30T01:16:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > As to your question. Since I don’t know much about this pool of money, or the fellow going blind it would be a personal calculation based on loyalty and morality. Let’s say a neighborhood association’s general fund. You know - a bunch of regular people putting their money together. Will you steal from it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/959 "2011-10-30T01:21:19Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So you really, truly think that there are only 2 options here: > > 1. Totalitarian regime, where there are cameras in your house, and sensors in your medicine cabinet, where police are empowered by the state to force you to complete a course of antibiotics against your will. > > 2. Libertopia, where anyone can take any sort of antibiotics at any time for any reason, leading to an increased amount of deaths from antibiotic resistant bacteria, and ultimately to all antibiotics, antivirals, antifungicides being completely useless. Obviously there aren’t two options. But there are two principles - one in which your freedom trumps public health and the other in which public health trumps your freedom. As Spock said: “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”. Apparently you don’t agree. You keep trying to tell me that it is absurd to feel that freedom is more precious than the “public good”. Yet you reveal that you yourself feel that it is. So in principle you agree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/960 "2011-10-30T01:31:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s say a neighborhood association’s general fund. You know - a bunch of regular people putting their money together. Will you steal from it? Then, as in most people, it comes down to loyalty. Do you feel a mother who steals to feed her starving kid is being immoral? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=49)