# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/961 "2011-10-30T01:33:18Z")
Also these questions remain: > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You didn’t answer about the cable company jamming wireless internet, and the wired phone company jamming mobile phones. > > What do they have to lose? > Again, what if you’re using the signal to transmit speech someone else doesn’t like? Is it okay if they jam you? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/962 "2011-10-30T02:13:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > . . . Let me ask you a question since you keep asking me. Let’s say you know this guy who is going blind and the state would NOT pay for the procedure. Also all of the above methods did not bring in money. Are you willing to steal money to finance this guy’s procedure? Let’s stipulate that it is a “sure thing” - you won’t get caught. And let’s stipulate that you’re not stealing from a bank or a big corporation - but from some kind of fund where a bunch of normal people keep their money. > > Tell me you’re willing to steal for it. Do it. I wouldn’t steal to pay for someone else’s eyesight… But I would – certainly! – steal if that were the only way to preserve my own eyesight! Hell yes! In a heartbeat! (Hm… Maybe my sister’s eyesight… I’m not sure… Could go either way on that…) (And I’d probably abet my friend stealing money to pay for his own eyesight. So, morally, pretty much the same thing.) Bad actions for good reasons. Is anyone surprised that such things happen? (Why do you think money is kept in locked vaults?) Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/963 "2011-10-30T03:22:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Obviously there aren’t two options. But there are two principles - one in which your freedom trumps public health and the other in which public health trumps your freedom. It may surprise you to know that some of us can embrace more than one principle. We can recognize that the principle of individual freedom of choice is important AND at the same time, recognize the principle that we need regulations to live by in a society, and these regulations are best set by common consent in a democratic way. We can see that unfettered freedom of choice can sometimes be damaging to the welllbeing of the society that we live in AND at the same time that complete control of the individual is both impossible to achieve and very undesirable. And most of us have grown beyond basing our philosophies on old Paramount movies. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/964 "2011-10-30T04:38:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Then, as in most people, it comes down to loyalty. And you’re still not answering the question. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/965 "2011-10-30T04:40:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I wouldn’t steal to pay for someone else’s eyesight… Why not? You would have the government steal in order to pay for someone else’s eyesight. But you wouldn’t dirty your hands yourself. A bit hypocritical wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/966 "2011-10-30T04:41:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > . . . And most of us have grown beyond basing our philosophies on old Paramount movies. One could do a lot worse than basing one’s philosophy on Barbarella… Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/967 "2011-10-30T04:49:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you’re still not answering the question. Because the question has different answers depending on the situation. There are situations, back against the wall, no options, in which I would steal yes. Again do you feel a mother who steals bread to feed her starving children is being immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/968 "2011-10-30T04:54:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why not? You would have the government steal in order to pay for someone else’s eyesight. But you wouldn’t dirty your hands yourself. A bit hypocritical wouldn’t you say? Taxation isn’t theft. Every society taxes. If you don’t like taxation, may I suggest you spend your time crying equally about gravity, death and the color of the moon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/969 "2011-10-30T04:56:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why not? You would have the government steal in order to pay for someone else’s eyesight. But you wouldn’t dirty your hands yourself. A bit hypocritical wouldn’t you say? Assumes facts not in evidence. Taxation isn’t theft. Taxation is a duty. Btw these questions still remain: > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Also these questions remain: > > > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > > You didn’t answer about the cable company jamming wireless internet, and the wired phone company jamming mobile phones. > > > > What do they have to lose? > > Again, what if you’re using the signal to transmit speech someone else doesn’t like? Is it okay if they jam you? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/970 "2011-10-30T05:45:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why not? You would have the government steal in order to pay for someone else’s eyesight. But you wouldn’t dirty your hands yourself. A bit hypocritical wouldn’t you say? No, since I do not hold taxation to be theft. But it is nice to see you attempting to play “gotcha.” Were I to object to that, that would be hypocritical of me. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/971 "2011-10-30T05:51:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No, since I do not hold taxation to be theft. Of course you don’t. And some people don’t hold theft to be theft. It’s just redistribution of wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/972 "2011-10-30T06:11:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course you don’t. And some people don’t hold theft to be theft. It’s just redistribution of wealth. And some people don’t hold antibiotics to be antibiotics. Shrug. I think we’re done here. Mwaaaah! G’nite everybody. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/973 "2011-10-30T06:25:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course you don’t. And some people don’t hold theft to be theft. It’s just redistribution of wealth. Theft is theft. Taxation is taxation. If you want to claim that taxation is theft it’s up to you to make that argument. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/974 "2011-10-30T08:26:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why not? You would have the government steal in order to pay for someone else’s eyesight. As said, taxes aren’t theft. And giving someone back their eyesight is not exactly a terrible accusation to make against someone. When they are done taxing us to cure the blind, perhaps they can tax us to make the lame walk and raise the dead, too. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/975 "2011-10-30T09:03:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Theft is theft. Taxation is taxation. If you want to claim that taxation is theft it’s up to you to make that argument. As I said before, certain things are axiomatic. I will make the argument. You will dismiss it because you don’t want to think that way. Nothing will change. No point. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/976 "2011-10-30T09:04:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As said, taxes aren’t theft. And giving someone back their eyesight is not exactly a terrible accusation to make against someone. When they are done taxing us to cure the blind, perhaps they can tax us to make the lame walk and raise the dead, too. What - no comment yet on the cites I gave for the stuff you refused to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/977 "2011-10-30T10:12:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I showed Israel as an example of a heavily armed peaceful society. People who “keep going on” about it are you and others. Apparently it just sticks in your craw. Let me make this perfectly clear: Israel is an armed society that consists of military veterans. Military veterans are trained not to shoot each other. An armed society that consists of trained military veterans is completely different than an armed society that does not consists of trained military veterans, and nothing that characterizes the former can be applied to the latter. In other words, Israel doesn’t functions because it has guns. It functions because we’re fucking Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/978 "2011-10-30T13:20:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Let me make this perfectly clear: Israel is an armed society that consists of military veterans. Military veterans are trained not to shoot each other. An armed society that consists of trained military veterans is completely different than an armed society that does not consists of trained military veterans, and nothing that characterizes the former can be applied to the latter. > > In other words, Israel doesn’t functions because it has guns. It functions because we’re fucking Israelis. Being an Israeli, you would think **Terr** would already know this, but he seems to be less than knowledgeable about who can have weapons, and for what reasons, than a some of the _non_-Israelis in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/979 "2011-10-30T14:50:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. Imposing order by a self-regulatory authority. Without trampling rights. I have the right to broadcast on any frequency I want! _ **Tyranny!!!** _ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/980 "2011-10-30T15:38:10Z")
Please answer the question. What’s to prevent someone from jamming a radio station they don’t like the speech of? What’s to prevent a wired bandwidth provider from jamming the signal of competing wireless technologies? Also what’s to prevent someone from jamming the signals of anyone who doesn’t pay them a bribe to stop? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=50)