# In a libertarian society... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458 "2011-10-12T20:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/161 "2011-10-22T20:12:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Far preferable to Libertopia, where wealthy property owners have all the power. At least in a democracy, the majority has a chance to do what is in their interest. I still don’t see why you consider that preferable, I guess you’re okay when the government oppresses minorities,which is what it means for the majority to do what’s in the majority’s interest. Right there in that sentence you very intentionally ignored the reality that there is a minority group who isn’t so happy with you taking their land. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/162 "2011-10-22T20:29:27Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I still don’t see why you consider that preferable, I guess you’re okay when the government oppresses minorities,which is what it means for the majority to do what’s in the majority’s interest. I support democracy, even when that oppresses the wealthy property owners. I thought that was clear. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/163 "2011-10-22T22:14:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? Why would you think so. The antibiotics have to be produced by someone, at considerable expense. Why would you think that others would be entitled to “free” access to them? Free as in free speech. Unrestricted. I should have made that clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/164 "2011-10-22T22:30:00Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I still don’t see why you consider that preferable, I guess you’re okay when the government oppresses minorities,which is what it means for the majority to do what’s in the majority’s interest. It’s better than a situation where everybody can oppress minorities. Which is pretty much the whole argument. We’re not claiming government is perfect. We’re just saying it’s a lot better than libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/165 "2011-10-22T22:32:39Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > Free as in free speech. Unrestricted. I should have made that clearer. Ah, you mean being able to buy them without a prescription? Sure why not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/166 "2011-10-23T01:01:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah, you mean being able to buy them without a prescription? Sure why not. Because indescriminate use of antibiotics is a threat to everyone. It breeds super bacteria that cannot be treated with antibiotics, then everyone is at risk. Your freedom to use any drug you wish is dangerous. This may well be Libertopia’s Darwinian flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/167 "2011-10-23T02:24:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because indescriminate use of antibiotics is a threat to everyone. It breeds super bacteria that cannot be treated with antibiotics, then everyone is at risk. Your freedom to use any drug you wish is dangerous. This may well be Libertopia’s Darwinian flaw. Since antibiotics do not produce a “high”, or any other euphoric effect, I don’t see people self-administering them as a big problem. And if you’re worried about that, you could put up an advertising campaign that would warn people that “indescriminate” use of antibiotics is not good for them. That would help. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/168 "2011-10-23T02:54:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since antibiotics do not produce a “high”, or any other euphoric effect, I don’t see people self-administering them as a big problem. And if you’re worried about that, you could put up an advertising campaign that would warn people that “indescriminate” use of antibiotics is not good for them. That would help. The problem is not that it is bad for _them_, it is bad for _me_ when they use them innappropriately. They become little breeding pools for antibiotic resistant bacteria that threaten me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/169 "2011-10-23T03:09:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The problem is not that it is bad for _them_, it is bad for _me_ when they use them innappropriately. They become little breeding pools for antibiotic resistant bacteria that threaten me. Good. You should educate them then. Or provide medical services for them for free. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/170 "2011-10-23T05:45:57Z")
And companies selling the antibiotics will advertise don’t listen to those guys, this stuff cures what ails ya! How does libertopia propose to license doctors? Let prospective patients compare body counts? Engineers? Oh, well this guy has only had 3 buildings collapse. Don’t like that company dumping toxins on its land? Well, sorry… Drink upstream from them. But hey, maybe having my milk cut with chalk again would be a good thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/171 "2011-10-23T13:56:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good. You should educate them then. Or provide medical services for them for free. Much easier to have a strong federal government to regulate medications. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/172 "2011-10-23T17:15:15Z")
I’m really only now trying to wrap my head around libertarianism, but it seems so myopic that it’d only work on the scope of a nation about the size of a typical Settlers of Catan board. And about the same technological and social bredth as well. This isn’t 1880 anymore. We are dealing with infrastructures, technologies, economies, ecologies and a unified population far bigger than a true free market, charity or a tiny, atrophied government could ever hope to keep on the rails. It seems the outlook of such a nation would quickly devolve as anything bigger than running a toll booth would quickly become gridlocked by individuals fighting over their individual rights and never achieve the sort of common welfare a nation this size could and should deploy when it makes sense to do so. Especially when certain protocols (antibiotics) or regulations (pollution / emissions) are so esoteric they must be researched, organized and controlled by a body that’s outside of privatized interests. Not to mention equality and basic civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/173 "2011-10-23T20:58:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Good. You should educate them then. Or provide medical services for them for free. And if someone steals from me, or shoots at me, or does anything else to harm me, is the solution to that just that I should educate them to do otherwise, too? People overusing antibiotics are harming me, just as surely as people shooting at me or stealing from me are. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/174 "2011-10-23T21:42:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if someone steals from me, or shoots at me, or does anything else to harm me, is the solution to that just that I should educate them to do otherwise, too? No, you shoot back. > [@](#): > > People overusing antibiotics are harming me, just as surely as people shooting at me or stealing from me are. Your ideas are harming me. Should I prevent you from having them? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/175 "2011-10-23T21:52:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, you shoot back. > Your ideas are harming me. Should I prevent you from having them? That question is harming me. Am I justified in shooting you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/176 "2011-10-23T21:55:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That question is harming me. Am I justified in shooting you? No. Force is justified only as a response to initiating force. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/177 "2011-10-23T22:20:45Z")
Overusing antibiotics is not an idea, it’s an inherent risk in dealing with a technology that very many are quite ignorant of (and, even now, where you need a prescription). When bacterial strains become ever more adapted to a particular antibiotic, more people die. The overuse in soaps are even being discouraged, but the nature of man is to think of themselves first, as thinking on a scale of the population at large just isn’t wired into us like that, not on the scope of 300 million +, and certainly not on the scope of 7 billion. The world, the technology and just about everything else has outgrown and outpaced such compartmentalized ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/178 "2011-10-24T03:07:12Z")
And the people who overuse antibiotics and thereby breed supergerms are, in fact, initiating force against the rest of the world. Heck, we invaded Iraq over less. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/179 "2011-10-24T03:17:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the people who overuse antibiotics and thereby breed supergerms are, in fact, initiating force against the rest of the world. Heck, we invaded Iraq over less. Bullshit. Words have meanings. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/180 "2011-10-24T03:47:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Bullshit. Words have meanings. Bullshit on which part? Because sentences have meanings too, but usually they’re based on context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458.md?page=10)