# In a nutshell what's wrong with this country: "Elon Musk Throws a S--t Fit Over the Possibility of Being Taxed His Fair Share" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2021, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357 "2021-10-28T05:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/22 "2021-10-28T14:10:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That I pay more in taxes than Bezos and Musk should be criminal. English is hard. The phrase you wanted to replace “more” with is “higher percentage”. Next time you’ll do better. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/23 "2021-10-28T14:13:41Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’ve got no problem with Musk not paying taxes most year Tesla just posted its first quarter of making money from selling cars. But clearly while Musk’s net worth is tied up in Tesla’s valuation, his “operating expenses” as a person, so to speak, are not. He is spending lavishly, so that money is coming from somewhere. Likely from personal loans against his company fortune so he can avoid paying income taxes on it. His response to the Pro Publica article about how he avoids paying taxes was that it was “misleading”, not that it was “incorrect”. That says a lot to me. You can read about the tax avoidance schemes these guys are using here if you want: [https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax) A nice quote that sums it up from Carl Icahn from that article sums up his thinking: > [@](#): > > Asked whether it was appropriate that he had paid no income tax in certain years, Icahn said he was perplexed by the question. “There’s a reason it’s called income tax,” he said. “The reason is if, if you’re a poor person, a rich person, if you are Apple — if you have no income, you don’t pay taxes.” He added: “Do you think a rich person should pay taxes no matter what? I don’t think it’s germane. How can you ask me that question?” I think we need to find a way to incentive individuals whose net worth is largely/entirely tied up in the ownership of an individual company to not sit on that stock forever, not pay dividends, and pull living expenses not from income but from personal loans. Because this scheme of “build up massive net worth, borrow against it, and then die letting the estate pay off the personal loans” allows large amounts of assets to be shielded from taxation permanently, requiring either a higher deficit or higher tax burdens on those that don’t have that option (read: almost everybody, but particularly those that earn high wages but don’t have massive investments). I don’t like paying taxes either, and as a high-earning family whose income is largely from wages we pay more than most as a percentage. It’s pretty gross that even if you consider just income (not wealth growth), every person in that Pro Publica paid a lower effective tax rate than my family did over the period in question. Some significantly so. And of course if you consider weath, and the borrowing it allows, it’s even grosser. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/24 "2021-10-28T14:15:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am not asking for a special tax on the super rich. > I am asking that they pay the same tax rate I do. Same as you too. But you and I probably **don’t** pay the same tax rate as each other, unless we have similar salaries. A person making $100,000 per year pays a much higher rate than someone making $20,000. So doesn’t it make sense that someone making $1,000,000 should pay an even higher rate, and $1,000,000,000 even higher than that? (Please note that I have not mentioned what those rates are, nor what they should be, only the fact that it does change.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/25 "2021-10-28T14:21:36Z")
Nope. He is not paying a higher percentage. He is paying a lower percentage. You are having fun nitpicking but you got it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/26 "2021-10-28T14:23:55Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > But you and I probably **don’t** pay the same tax rate as each other, unless we have similar salaries. A person making $100,000 per year pays a much higher rate than someone making $20,000. Not entirely true. Look up progressive taxes. Musk pays the same taxes on the first $20k as you and I do. And so it goes. Yet, Musk pays LESS taxes (as a percentage) than you or I do on massive profits. That’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/27 "2021-10-28T14:35:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yet, Musk pays LESS taxes (as a percentage) than you or I do on massive profits. But that’s not because of the rates. All else being equal, he would NOT pay less. He does, in fact pay less, and that’s because not all else is equal. It’s because of exemptions, deductions, and similar “loopholes”. We should not label his taxes as unfairly low simply because he pays so little. Go ahead and attack the loopholes if you think they’re unfair, but don’t attack someone for taking deductions that they are entitled to. (Or do _you_ decline the deductions that _you_ are entitled to?) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/28 "2021-10-28T14:37:36Z")
The point of the OP is Musk throwing a shit-fit because he might not be able to exploit loopholes and actually have to pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/29 "2021-10-28T14:39:13Z")
No, it’s because of the stupid idea to tax unrealized gains. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/30 "2021-10-28T14:40:52Z")
The proposal is for a new super-rich-only tax. That Musk objects to it is not what is wrong with this country. If he takes advantage of the complicated tax system in our country to pay less tax than is ‘fair’ the solution is to simplify the tax system, not complexify it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/31 "2021-10-28T14:41:18Z")
If they paid taxes as they should then that would not be an issue. I think if you are collecting money based on your investments then you should pay taxes on it. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/32 "2021-10-28T14:42:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think if you are collecting money based on your investments then you should pay taxes on it. That is a very different proposal than the one in the OP that Musk objected to. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/33 "2021-10-28T14:42:27Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > We should not label his taxes as unfairly low simply because he pays so little. Musk has gained more wealth in the last week than you could earn in 1,000 lifetimes, and won’t have to pay a penny of that money in taxes if he doesn’t want to. This is why his tax rate should be considered unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/34 "2021-10-28T14:42:46Z")
The super-rich paid to get the system to work this way. Can you take advantage of the system they have in place and pay no taxes? ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/35 "2021-10-28T14:42:52Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > But clearly while Musk’s net worth is tied up in Tesla’s valuation, his “operating expenses” as a person, so to speak, are not. He is spending lavishly, so that money is coming from somewhere. Likely from personal loans against his company fortune so he can avoid paying income taxes on it. Not that it matters, but Musk does not spend lavishly. He lives in a shitty house in a shitty area close to Starbase, TX. He is selling or has sold most of his houses except one that is rented out for parties in LA. He doesn’t buy supercars or clothes. He is just focused on SpaceX at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/36 "2021-10-28T14:44:22Z")
You mean this shitty house? > **[Elon Musk lists two Bel Air homes after promising to sell off his possessions...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/business/elon-musk-home-sales/index.html)** > > Two of Elon Musk's massive, multimillion-dollar Southern California homes are on the market just days after he said he planned to sell off much of what he owns. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/37 "2021-10-28T14:44:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not like paying taxes anymore than the next person. But I understand them and why we need them and why we all should pay them. That I pay more in taxes than Bezos and Musk should be criminal. I doubt you pay more in taxes than Musk. “But this tax would keep on giving to Uncle Sam, particularly if the public stock market performed anything like it has between 2020 and 2021. Musk’s shares—as of the 2021 _Forbes_ 400 valuation date of September 3—had gained $83 billion in the year since the 2020 _Forbes_ 400, which would mean another $20 billion tax hit for Tesla’s founder, for a combined $29.8 billion over the first two years. (By contrast, according to tax returns [obtained](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax) by _ProPublica_ , Musk only paid $455 million in income taxes between 2014 and 2018.)” - bolding added. “In all, using the _Forbes_ 400 2021 valuation date, our 20 billionaires would owe another $106 billion for 2021. (Again, that’s assuming the tax had taken effect in 2020, whereas it’s proposed to take effect in 2022.) So in just the first two years of the tax, these 20 billionaires could have owed $345 billion—about 19% of their collective current net worth of $1.8 trillion—assuming they didn’t take a big charitable out, written into the bill. That’s more than the $200 billion to $250 billion over ten years [estimated](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/25/senate-democrats-push-for-billionaire-tax-to-help-fund-spending-plan.html) by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.” I can well imagine screeching over the prospect of coughing up 1/5 of your net worth, even if you’re a multibillionaire. I’m all for the super-rich paying their “fair share”, whatever that comes out to. Musk is correct in that taxing the uber-wealthy alone will ultimately fall far short of funding the programs to be passed in coming years - free college tuition, universal health care etc., and tax hikes are coming (and should be) for most people, even as higher rates fall on those with greater income. > **[Here’s How Many Billions Of Dollars America’s 20 Richest—Including Elon Musk...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/10/27/heres-how-many-billions-of-dollars-americas-20-richest-including-elon-musk-and-jeff-bezos-might-owe-under-proposed-billionaire-tax/)** > > Congress is mulling a new billionaire tax that would apply the long-term capital gains rate to unrealized gains in publicly traded assets—a move that would hit the pockets of at least 42% of America’s 777 billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/38 "2021-10-28T14:44:44Z")
How much has Musk paid in taxes in the past 5 years, Whack-a-Mole? ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/39 "2021-10-28T14:46:37Z")
If you can read what I wrote, he is **living** in a shitty house in a shitty area. He is selling or has sold his other houses, so I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/40 "2021-10-28T14:47:11Z")
Link to his shitty house in a shitty area that he is living in? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/41 "2021-10-28T14:47:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Musk has gained more wealth in the last week than you could earn in 1,000 lifetimes, and won’t have to pay a penny of that money in taxes if he doesn’t want to. This is why his tax rate should be considered unfair. If you’ve seen a checkbox on the income tax forms that says, “Do you really want to pay this?”, please show it to me. He avoids paying tax NOT because “he doesn’t want to”, but because he has a way to get deductions that aren’t available to me. So complain about those deductions, not about his ability to use them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357.md?page=3)