# In a nutshell what's wrong with this country: "Elon Musk Throws a S--t Fit Over the Possibility of Being Taxed His Fair Share" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2021, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357 "2021-10-28T05:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/82 "2021-10-28T18:09:16Z")
Are you suggesting these people had no income in these years? > In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world, also paid no federal income taxes. > > Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years. Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros paid no federal income tax three years in a row. > > –snip– > > …it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year. > > [SOUCRE](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/83 "2021-10-28T18:12:32Z")
They probably didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/84 "2021-10-28T19:15:27Z")
They had no NET income. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/85 "2021-10-28T19:30:54Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But we are talking income tax. Property tax is paid to the state not the federal government. Are property taxes not being paid to the state? There are ways the rich get away from paying income tax (like not getting a pay check) but are they getting away from paying property taxes? Yes, but it is proof that a “wealth” tax is not unheard of. What is being proposed is a new tax at the federal level, but it is in line with other taxing concepts out there. This is not some absurd new way of soaking the rich; it _is_ a way of closing an income loophole. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/86 "2021-10-28T19:35:33Z")
2% of Elon’s wealth could solve world hunger? That doesn’t even remotely pass the smell test. 2% of Elon’s wealth as of today (its highest ever), would be about $5 billion dollars. If $5 billion could solve world hunger, we would have solved it a long, long time ago. For that matter, you could add the $5 billion ‘world hunger fix’ to the reconciliation bill, raising its cost from 3.5 trillion to… 3.55 trillion. Or you could fix world hunger by lowering the amount allocated for more IRS agents from 80 billion to 75 billion. For reference, the U.S. government spends about $80 billion per year on food stamps. I guess they solve world hunger 16 times per year. Can anyone do math any more? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/87 "2021-10-28T19:44:58Z")
They don’t sell them. They get loans from the bank at puny interest rates, far lower than even capital gains and live on that. Then that take a “salary” that can pay the interest and pay taxes on that. Except of course they have exemptions that let them avoid taxe on even those tiny amounts. Buy, borrow, die. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/88 "2021-10-28T19:46:24Z")
Did somebody not bother to read the article and see what the UN director said, rather than just looking at the headline? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/89 "2021-10-28T19:53:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am missing what his real problem is. Elon Musk’s real problem is that he’s an irredeemable asshole. This has been discussed on this board before, and was notably portrayed in what seemed to me a fairly even-handed biography by the journalist and fellow South African Ashlee Vance. And then there’s this: > In a separate tweet, Musk said any government-induced reallocation of wealth would be better managed by the private sector. WTF? More than any other country in the world, the US has been allowing the allocation of wealth to be “managed by the private sector”. That’s how we got the infamous 1% in the first place, how the US got rampant grinding poverty in the midst of obscene wealth, and how it got one of the world’s largest and fastest-growing income disparities between the super-rich and everyone else. Meawhile, Musk is fine with taking billions in public money in the form of SpaceX contracts while paying no taxes himself, and using some of those billions to create a space tourism industry for billionaires and further enrich himself. And this, in his view, is private enterprise demonstrating how it’s “best” at capital allocation for the social good. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/90 "2021-10-28T20:02:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They had no NET income. Yet somehow they could still afford groceries. We have plenty of Musk supporters complaining about people who also choose to have no net income. They choose that rather than toil at some shitty minimum wage job being hassled by assholes all day. Full supply of invectives by these capitalists directed a people who are apparently lazy shiftless sponges using laws and regulations to avoid contributing to society, and none towards the mega wealthy who also use the law to avoid contributing to society. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/91 "2021-10-28T20:14:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It’s called “trickle down economics.” That is, the ultrawealthy take a piss, it flows down […] Hehehe… I like [that](https://schumanchu.eu/html/r1/r1_00144trickle~down.html). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/92 "2021-10-28T20:40:02Z")
Have you read Mark Twain’s Million Pound Bank Note? Have so much money, people fall over themselves to loan or give you whatever. Your influence is worth millions. Borrow at zero interest. Sell stock that lost money on paper. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/93 "2021-10-28T21:08:25Z")
The math is irrelevant because you can’t actually solve world hunger with money, the world hunger claim was not a good one to begin with. Much hunger is about logistical / societal stability / etc problems in countries that have poor infrastructure, conflict regions etc. There’s plenty of areas of the world with high hunger where if you just roll bags of money in, a local warlord or what have you is just going to take it and use it for bad things, and no one is going to get fed. This was something we found out very quickly in Somalia in the early 90s, that just a willingness to send money wasn’t actually improving things on the ground. So we sent a UN peacekeeping force to make sure the right people were getting help, and ended up in a shooting war, which the public and Bill Clinton very quickly said “alright time to fuck on out of here” over. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/94 "2021-10-28T22:35:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are having fun nitpicking but you got it wrong. Man, today was a zoo but this is too funny to let go. You wrote: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That I pay more in taxes than Bezos and Musk should be criminal. I suggested that you could actually be correct by > [@Oredigger77](#): > > The phrase you wanted to replace “more” with is “higher percentage”. If you did that you would get: > [@](#): > > That I pay [a] higher percentage in taxes than Bezos and Musk should be criminal Which would make > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > He is paying a lower percentage. True ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/95 "2021-10-28T22:46:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > **Note that when I say accumulation of wealth is not historically treated as income** , that isn’t the same thing as saying it isn’t historically **taxed.** In fact, I would argue that the historical norm before the 20th century is that most accumulated wealth was regularly taxed–the origin of property taxes is basically the concept of assessing a tax based on your wealth. For ordinary Americans, we are often regularly taxed on our wealth in the form of paying property taxes on the value of our home. But when the vast fortunes changed from being associated with owning land, to owning joint stock company shares, the practice of assessing levies on wealth accumulation didn’t transfer with it. That’s one thing I think many people forget. When I came to realize this is when I really came around to supporting the idea of wealth taxes. The argument that I’ve gotten from some people is that “property taxes are meant to pay for the infrastructure and services that directly benefit that property” - but it’s clear to me that isn’t how it works in practice, since properties are not taxed based on how many resources they use, but instead based on assessed market value. Certainly it seems reasonable to me to treat other forms of wealth in the same manner that we treat property for the purposes of taxation. The fact that the uber-wealthy can leverage their wealth to fund lavish lifestyles without actually claiming any income definitely highlights a flaw in the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/96 "2021-10-28T23:00:41Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > 68k in taxes is about what you’d pay on 200k or so in income. Thats a high income, but not the 1% (which starts at about 500k in income) Ya, that’s why I said clearly close. I didn’t want to do the math but I knew it it would be 270-340 range. 1% for single earners is about 360k so he wouldn’t be in it but close. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/97 "2021-10-28T23:08:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Again: why is it okay to craft exemptions that target the wealthy but not okay to craft taxes that target the wealthy? Can you give an example of one of those exemptions? I’m aware of several exemptions that phase out at higher income levels but I’m not aware of any that you can’t take advantage of until you hit certain thresholds? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/98 "2021-10-28T23:08:35Z")
Operate 13 or so aircraft carriers or solve world hunger? If we are going to make fallacious analogies we ought to point out that the government is not a good steward. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/99 "2021-10-28T23:08:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Most of own stock in retirement plans, and have home equity. Do we want to pay taxes on those, forcing us to sell? I just noticed this. Can I do the home equity thing? Cuz I was paying tons of tax when I had basically zero equity. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/100 "2021-10-28T23:23:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The idea that a tax is invalid because only the wealthy pay it is silly. The first income tax in America only targeted like the top 1-2% of income tax earners. These aren’t Bills of Attainder, they are taxes with high trigger points for being assessed, and there’s a number of taxes like that in our history. You just helped make Musk’s point. I find it fascinating that nearly everybody in this thread, in their zeal to make the ultra-rich pay their “fair” share, is so studiously ignoring the fact that Musk is correct. The history of the modern income tax presents a warning, for anybody willing to see it. Like this billionaire tax proposal, the income tax started out at a very high trigger point, so only a relative handful of people were subject to it. BUT–government is never satisfied. It always wants more and more. The article in the OP quotes Musk– > “Eventually, they run out of other people’s money and then they come for you,” he wrote on Twitter. And here we go– > There isn’t yet an estimate from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, but House Speaker Nancy Pelosi [said](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/25/senate-democrats-push-for-billionaire-tax-to-help-fund-spending-plan.html) the billionair’s tax could raise $200 billion to $250 billion of revenue over a decade. > **[What is a "billionaires tax," and how would it work?](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-tax-wealth-how-it-works/)** > > About 700 Americans could face a new wealth tax under a Democratic proposal. Here's how it could work. Remember that $3.5 trillion plan that the liberals are trying to ram through Congress? If the higher end of Pelosi’s estimate is correct, this tax would pay for a measly **7%** of the cost of that bill! Where, pray tell, do you people think that the rest of that money is going to come from? Just like the income tax, the trigger point for this new tax is going to get lower, and lower, and lower. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357/101 "2021-10-28T23:33:47Z")
I mean that wasn’t actually the point of Musk’s that I took issue with, it was more his assertion that he basically shouldn’t have to pay taxes because he knows how to better spend the money than the government. But his warning kind of falls flat, the sort of activity being taxed here simply isn’t done by most Americans. Something like 70% of the country has no investment earnings at all. That’s a major difference from the income tax–which no one thought only rich people had income in the early 1900s. Also I frankly wouldn’t mind if the trigger point was very low. Most genuinely lower income people won’t be affected by the tax regardless of at what level it is assessed. I do think you could structure it more intelligently though, for example maybe have a deduction so that you can say until your taxes owed under the calculation would exceed the amount you paid in Federal income taxes that year, you owe no tax. That way it would only affect people who get a disproportionate share of their income from investing, which would phase out most people below the $500k/yr mark. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-nutshell-whats-wrong-with-this-country-elon-musk-throws-a-s-t-fit-over-the-possibility-of-being-taxed-his-fair-share/953357.md?page=6)