# In America, has an armed civilian ever taken down a rampaging psycho? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962 "2012-07-21T15:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/21 "2012-07-21T17:04:10Z")
I wish I had a cite, but even in states with shall issue concealed carry, most people get their permits and either only carry in the car, or quit carrying after a short while. It’s inconvenient, a lot of your friends think you are nuts for doing so, many off-limits places that you might be in while you are out. So you eventually leave it at home thinking that nothing will happen. Sort of the excuse that people used to use for not wearing seat belts: It won’t happen to me. But even if you are carrying, you just got your tub of popcorn and giant soda for $17.95 and are ready to watch Batman. You are taken wholly by surprise by a guy with a vest and armed to the teeth. Your concealed carry pistol is no match for this maniac. Plus, most people haven’t been in combat. I haven’t. I would like to think that I would be the hero and calmly try to get a head shot on the guy, but it is equally if not more likely that I would be running, pissing myself, or lying under a seat crying. You never know until you are put in that situation. A civilian carrying a gun is more for a one on one encounter where you have an element of surprise, not for a mass shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Tad\_Dainty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Tad\_Dainty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tad_Dainty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/22 "2012-07-21T17:16:39Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It is extremely unlikely that an ordinary armed citizen would have the discipline to overcome his panic in that sort of situation. Trained soldiers and cops freeze under fire, so a man-on-the-street is much more likely to be in the frenzied mob trying to find an exit, than to be trying to John Wayne it against a heavily-armed shooter. As a former military man who has been under fire, I can tell you that remaining calm is not an option. When your heart rate has accelerated to the point where you can hear it in your breathing, and you are hyperventilating from fear, your flight instinct is overpowering. The idea that any ordinary citizen would be able to control that fear (let alone his aim) under that circumstance is just silly. but the fact is plenty of ordinary armed citizens have shot attackers in stressful situations. Is a panicked movie theater mob scene more or less stressful than going solo against 1 or more felons after dark on an empty street or from behind a cash register? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/23 "2012-07-21T17:25:53Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I wish I had a cite, but even in states with shall issue concealed carry, most people get their permits and either only carry in the car, or quit carrying after a short while. It’s inconvenient, a lot of your friends think you are nuts for doing so, many off-limits places that you might be in while you are out. So you eventually leave it at home thinking that nothing will happen. Sort of the excuse that people used to use for not wearing seat belts: It won’t happen to me. > > But even if you are carrying, you just got your tub of popcorn and giant soda for $17.95 and are ready to watch Batman. You are taken wholly by surprise by a guy with a vest and armed to the teeth. Your concealed carry pistol is no match for this maniac. > > Plus, most people haven’t been in combat. I haven’t. I would like to think that I would be the hero and calmly try to get a head shot on the guy, but it is equally if not more likely that I would be running, pissing myself, or lying under a seat crying. You never know until you are put in that situation. A civilian carrying a gun is more for a one on one encounter where you have an element of surprise, not for a mass shooting. Plus my understanding is the guy was wearing full body armor, so I don’t know how effective a handgun would have been against him anyway. Even if you were armed, cool headed and prepared to deal with him I don’t think you could’ve done more than hit him in the arms and legs. But that still would’ve been enough to stop him, or at least slow him down. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/24 "2012-07-21T18:11:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > At a Santa Clara shooting range a gunman was shot by an armed customer after he had taken three employees hostage and said he was going to kill them. Wow. Granted I know nothing of this incident other than what you posted, but that has to be one of the dumber criminals. Picked about the only place where armed folks with good aim and lots of experience were SURE to be right there. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/25 "2012-07-21T18:52:56Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > As a former military man who has been under fire, I can tell you that remaining calm is not an option. When your heart rate has accelerated to the point where you can hear it in your breathing, and you are hyperventilating from fear, your flight instinct is overpowering. The idea that any ordinary citizen would be able to control that fear (let alone his aim) under that circumstance is just silly. There is a difference between being adrenalized but controlled, and being _panicked_. Military men under fire very often _don’t_ flee. Did you? The other side of the “flight” instinct is “fight,” and both military men and “ordinary” citizens (a pool which naturally includes former military men, and others with a wide range of experiences) _do_ fight. So I reckon it’s the idea that _controlling oneself under fire is impossible_ that is a bit silly here. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/26 "2012-07-21T18:55:18Z")
> [@Mdcastleman](#): > > I’d also note that had I been in the Breivik case my weapon of choice wouldn’t be a handgun. Brievik had a carbine and a shotgun, which meant you’d be vastly outgunned by him in a short range, open firefight. Your choices are to shoot him in the back from nearby (this is a camp so there didn’t appear to be any shortage of hiding places), or out-range him. My weapon of choice would be an AR-15. The round is big enough to do the job, it has a high capacity and is accurate. Maybe if it was a righ-wing camp in the US they’d have a rifle range so I would have brought mine along to target shoot? > > In the theater I’d pick a handgun. The distances are to short and the consequences of overpenetration are too high, and there’s no way I’d take a rifle to watch a movie even if it were allowed. To be perfectly frank, you’d be trying to hide while shitting yourself, just like pretty much everyone else. The people who can deal in that sort of situation are very highly trained, or very experienced, for the most part. It’s not just a matter of owning a few guns and having played Call of Duty 3. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/27 "2012-07-21T18:55:33Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Plus my understanding is the guy was wearing full body armor, so I don’t know how effective a handgun would have been against him anyway. Even if you were armed, cool headed and prepared to deal with him I don’t think you could’ve done more than hit him in the arms and legs. But that still would’ve been enough to stop him, or at least slow him down. Depends on the level of training and what they mean by body armor. If you are wearing what police normally wear its not like you can shrug off being hit by a hand gun. They are designed to save your life but you will be injured, maybe incapacitated. Even with better armor you are still getting hit with a lot of kinetic energy. Any one with any training would put two in the chest one in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/28 "2012-07-21T18:57:13Z")
It’s worth pointing out that someone killing or disabling a rampaging psycho wouldn’t be reported as such simply because they will usually be stopped long before they achieve the level of massacre. Therefore, I feel safe in saying yes based simply on the odds. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/29 "2012-07-21T18:57:30Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > To be perfectly frank, you’d be trying to hide while shitting yourself, just like pretty much everyone else. The people who can deal in that sort of situation are very highly trained, or very experienced, for the most part. It’s not just a matter of owning a few guns and having played Call of Duty 3. Training helps but it is not everything. I have met plenty of highly trained cowards. And untrained heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/30 "2012-07-21T18:59:32Z")
> [@Tad\_Dainty](#): > > but the fact is plenty of ordinary armed citizens have shot attackers in stressful situations. Is a panicked movie theater mob scene more or less stressful than going solo against 1 or more felons after dark on an empty street or from behind a cash register? Much more, I would think: smoke, tear gas, rapid fire from multiple weapons, people screaming, running, falling and dying. Behind a counter, you sort of expect that somebody might come in to attempt a robbery and have an idea about what action (if any) you would take in that situation. If I were on a dark, empty street and was carrying, I’d likely have my hand somewhere in the vicinity of my weapon. Any situation where someone has intervened in a mass shooting is an exception, not a rule. Overcoming the flight reflex is something that is learned through training and experience; it’s not instinctual. I can see where those kids mentioned above were able to go back into the scene once they were outside, able to think rationally and collect their weapons, however. ---
**Author:** ![Tad\_Dainty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Tad\_Dainty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tad_Dainty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/31 "2012-07-21T19:20:17Z")
The big thing missing from that scene of general chaos is one guy alone with you (or maybe with accomplices), putting a weapon in your face, ready to kill you. I can’t think of anything scarier. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/32 "2012-07-21T19:33:34Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Plus my understanding is the guy was wearing full body armor, so I don’t know how effective a handgun would have been against him anyway. Even if you were armed, cool headed and prepared to deal with him **I don’t think you could’ve done more than hit him in the arms and legs**. But that still would’ve been enough to stop him, or at least slow him down. Or the face. A gas mask isn’t bullet-proof. The ability to deliver a well-aimed shot would also depend on how far away the shooters were from each other. 7 feet? 21 feet? 150 feet? ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/33 "2012-07-21T19:38:02Z")
George Zimmerman did what the OP was asking for, did he not? ---
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/34 "2012-07-21T19:55:56Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > George Zimmerman did what the OP was asking for, did he not? Even if Zimmerman’s account of the incident is 100% correct, I don’t think that unarmed Travon Martin fits the OP “rampaging psycho.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/35 "2012-07-21T20:16:15Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It is extremely unlikely that an ordinary armed citizen would have the discipline to overcome his panic in that sort of situation. Trained soldiers and cops freeze under fire, so a man-on-the-street is much more likely to be in the frenzied mob trying to find an exit, than to be trying to John Wayne it against a heavily-armed shooter. As a former military man who has been under fire, I can tell you that remaining calm is not an option. When your heart rate has accelerated to the point where you can hear it in your breathing, and you are hyperventilating from fear, your flight instinct is overpowering. The idea that any ordinary citizen would be able to control that fear (let alone his aim) under that circumstance is just silly. And the counter-examples posted above? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/36 "2012-07-21T20:50:43Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > George Zimmerman did what the OP was asking for, did he not? What the fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/37 "2012-07-21T20:52:47Z")
People, humor. Look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/38 "2012-07-21T20:57:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the counter-examples posted above? I believe one of them was an off-duty cop. But that aside, do you believe those to be the rule rather than the exception? ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/39 "2012-07-21T21:02:50Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > People, humor. Look it up. It wasn’t very funny. It happens fairly often in Israel - the [Mercaz HaRav massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre) for instance the gunman shot eight students before being shot dead himself by civilians. The perpetrator of the [Jerusalem bulldozer attack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_bulldozer_attack) in 2008 similarly killed three people before being shot dead by a civilian. Personally I think a much more effective method of preventing deaths by rampaging gunmen is to prohibit possession of firearms, rather than to arm everyone to a man in the hopes that any attacker can be killed quickly, but I know that’s outside GQ. ---
**Author:** ![RearEchelon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RearEchelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RearEchelon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962/40 "2012-07-21T21:13:40Z")
> [@isaiahrobinson](#): > > It wasn’t very funny. > > It happens fairly often in Israel - the [Mercaz HaRav massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre) for instance the gunman shot eight students before being shot dead himself by civilians. The perpetrator of the [Jerusalem bulldozer attack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_bulldozer_attack) in 2008 similarly killed three people before being shot dead by a civilian. > > Personally I think a much more effective method of preventing deaths by rampaging gunmen is to prohibit possession of firearms, rather than to arm everyone to a man in the hopes that any attacker can be killed quickly, but I know that’s outside GQ. Yeah, because rampaging gunmen are fond of following firearms restrictions… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-america-has-an-armed-civilian-ever-taken-down-a-rampaging-psycho/628962.md?page=3)