# In BBQ, why mod a hint at a racist joke but not an actual racial slur? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 26, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970 "2021-05-26T17:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/244 "2021-06-02T22:04:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Let’s be really careful here, if you don’t mind. The implication that Jews (and Asians) are somehow higher on the scale is highly problematic. I did NOT say that. What I said was that making cracks about Jews, or about Asians, or about Blacks are ALL punching down. No matter the race of the person making the cracks. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/245 "2021-06-02T22:05:22Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > For the umpteenth time, could we please stop with the argument that “If I don’t think it’s racist, it’s not racist”? I don’t know what you want me to do. If I don’t think something is racist, my opinion is that it isn’t racist. That is in fact how my opinions work. What is the alternative? I can always be wrong, and sometimes I even change my opinion - as shown with the Cracker Barrel tangent. You don’t need me to agree with you because I am not the one in charge. **Miller** already issued a modnote to **damuriajashi**. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/246 "2021-06-02T22:07:20Z")
Apologies if I misunderstood, but this is what you said: “And if the Asian or Jew says something anti-Black, that is also down.” To me that sure sounds like the Jew or Asian are up, if they saying something Anti-Black is punching down. If not, then I don’t get what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/247 "2021-06-02T22:08:15Z")
The alternative is learning. The standard definition is the standard definition because of common usage. You can recognize that words have different definitions and different connotations depending on context, and that while you, personally, don’t find a word offensive, most people do, and treat the word accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/248 "2021-06-02T22:11:10Z")
Here’s that phrase incontext. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > And what if a black person says something anti-Asian or anti-Semitic? Is that punching up or down? > > down. > > And if the Asian or Jew says something anti-Black, that is also down. I was claiming that it’s punching down for any of those three people to make racist cracks about any of the other two. I was explicitly trying to illustrate that you CAN’T rank people. I guess I failed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/249 "2021-06-02T22:11:40Z")
Clothahump, in a series of threads that ultimately got him banned for admitting to trolling. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/250 "2021-06-02T22:13:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I was claiming that it’s punching down for any of those three people to make racist cracks about any of the other two. I was explicitly trying to illustrate that you CAN’T rank people. I guess I failed. That’s the problem with using terms like up and down. It implies a ranking. And while you may not think Asian or Jewish are ‘up’, plenty of people do. That’s one of the problems I have with the whole concept. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/251 "2021-06-02T22:13:17Z")
Ok- so again, my apologies for misunderstanding. Glad I posted a response rather than walking away annoyed. Unfortunately too many people don’t believe as you do, as I have certainly been subjected to that attitude. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/252 "2021-06-02T22:14:14Z")
As I said, up vs down is a useful heuristic. It’s not the whole story, but as a concept it’s not wrong. That some people don’t get it right doesn’t make the concept flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/253 "2021-06-02T22:16:10Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The alternative is learning. The standard definition is the standard definition because of common usage. You can recognize that words have different definitions and different connotations depending on context, and that while you, personally, don’t find a word offensive, most people do, and treat the word accordingly. Yes well, with all due respect, there is more to learning language than memorizing a dictionary. The goal of the relevant Pit rule is not to avoid offending people but to keep a modicum of decency. My experience with the word ‘cracker’ is that it is a perfectly civil word, and in a room where “racist motherf\*\*\*\*\*” adheres to the standards of decency, “racist cracker” does too. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/254 "2021-06-02T22:16:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A joke about doctors not being audited because they aren’t good enough with numbers to cheat on their taxes, for instance, might be okay. (I don’t remember the details, but have heard such a joke at work.) A joke about Black people not being good with numbers wouldn’t be okay, imo. Sure. But saying doctors are just corporate shills who don’t care about their patients wouldn’t be okay either. I’m not saying all insults or stereotypes are equally bad, but I don’t believe we should give offensive comments a pass just because someone considers them to be ‘punching up’. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/255 "2021-06-02T22:18:04Z")
No one, no one has said give them a pass. But when you have someone bleeding out and someone with a paper cut, and limited time and energy, which issue should you deal with first? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/256 "2021-06-02T22:24:50Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > As I said, up vs down is a useful heuristic. It’s not the whole story, but as a concept it’s not wrong. > > That some people don’t get it right doesn’t make the concept flawed. I’ve seen it used to excuse bad behaviour way too many times. IMO having this kind of double standard for acceptability is inherently prone to abuse. If it serves a useful purpose it would be better to find some other concept to replace it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/257 "2021-06-02T22:27:15Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No one, no one has said give them a pass. My first reply on the subject was to someone saying exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/258 "2021-06-02T22:32:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Yes well, with all due respect, there is more to learning language than memorizing a dictionary. Of course there is. That changes nothing. Your own connotation of the term “cracker” is different from the meaning it has for the majority of people. Anyone who wants to communicate effectively should be aware of that, whether they’re in the Pit or elsewhere. You’re not offended, fine. Most people see the term as offensive. That matters, in the Pit or anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/259 "2021-06-02T22:33:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cracker): “ _offensive_ —used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a poor, white, usually Southern person” That is definition 5a. Definition 5b - the prevailing usage in my experience - reads, > **sometimes offensive** : a native or resident of Florida or Georgia —used as a nickname ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/260 "2021-06-02T22:39:41Z")
It raises the larger question of who decides what is offensive. Is it up to the majority (presumably of the group so described)? Is it offensive if a minority, or anyone at all is offended? Do those in power decide (in this case the mods)? Or are the group not allowed to be offended at all, because it is considered ‘punching up’ to insult them? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/261 "2021-06-02T22:43:56Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Most people see the term as offensive. That is your opinion, not mine. Just look back at the replies, I don’t see a consensus even in this topic. > **Click to expand/hide** > > > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > > One of the main criteria for if a word is offensive is if the targeted group finds it offensive, right? Well, there _may_ be a few white people genuinely offended by _cracker_ , but they probably are few and far beween. As an extremely white person, I can’t think of (or almost conceive of) _any_ anti-white term that doesn’t bounce right off without notice. > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > As to the actual issue, I’m more or less with Darren\_Garrison. “Cracker,” “Honkey,” “Wypipo.” “Ofey” if you want to get classical. None of these phrases mean anything to me. I mean, I know their definitions, obviously, and I can recognize in context when they’re meant to be an insult, but there’s absolutely no teeth to it. It’s like being called a can of soup. > > > [@Tamerlane](#): > > > > I’m not particularly offended by cracker either, but I don’t think I would go with that as the neutral standard. > > > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > > Occasional use of cracker won’t register with me. A jam-packed flamefest of derogatory terms for white people might. > > > [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > > > I’ve never heard ‘cracker’ or ‘honkey’ used with any kind of venom; it’s almost always kind of jokey. > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > While I agree that the word “cracker” is not nearly as offensive as the N-word, I don’t see why offense is the criteria. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/262 "2021-06-02T22:47:31Z")
You get to decide for yourself what offends you, but the mods get to decide what is or is not hateful and/or racist enough to merit sanctions. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970/263 "2021-06-02T22:54:06Z")
About the linked article? That’s a very different situation- that’s like saying because we find comedians who roast people funny we think insulting people is A-Ok. That was a very specific situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-bbq-why-mod-a-hint-at-a-racist-joke-but-not-an-actual-racial-slur/942970.md?page=14)