# In Countries With Mandatory Military Service, What Happens If You're Too Fat, Too Sick, Too Dumb... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749 "2018-12-07T15:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/21 "2018-12-08T20:58:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s not a matter of “PC” or “affirmative action” or any of that bullshit. The IDF just believes that you don’t throw away a useful tool, even if its uses are very specific. Besides, putting people with lesser physical and mental abilities in support positions, means that that all the smart, fit ones are available to serve in combat. Very true. Two of my daughters were in the IDF, and the fact that they were native English speakers got them both into very good jobs that they loved. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/22 "2018-12-08T21:06:51Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > … On the other hand I knew two different people who, during the late 50s (that is post-Korea and pre-Vietnam) got exempted from the draft after showing up for the physical not wearing underpants. … Because they’d already gone commando? ---
**Author:** ![GinoC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f4b2a3/32.png) [@GinoC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GinoC)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/23 "2018-12-09T17:30:08Z")
There is a book called “Mcnamara’s Folly” by Hamilton Gregory that goes into great detail on the programme to drastically lower mental standards in order to fill the ranks during the Vietnam War. These young men numbered over 300,000 it is estimated, and their stories are truly tragic. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/24 "2018-12-09T18:09:50Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I had a one-eyed uncle who got drafted in WW II. He was an auto mechanic (and a good one) and they stationed him in Florida where he repaired tank transmissions. My grandfather joined voluntarily and after 9 months was Section 8ed because he couldn’t read. This was at the beginning of the war–later standards may have been loosened. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/25 "2018-12-09T18:59:12Z")
> [@GinoC](#): > > There is a book called “Mcnamara’s Folly” by Hamilton Gregory that goes into great detail on the programme to drastically lower mental standards in order to fill the ranks during the Vietnam War. These young men numbered over 300,000 it is estimated, and their stories are truly tragic. It worked out pretty good for Forrest Gump. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/26 "2018-12-09T22:40:59Z")
in the US in the past if people wanted to avoid service they could just say they were gay (prior to don’t ask, don’t tell) I don’t think you had to prove you were gay. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/27 "2018-12-10T01:29:48Z")
IIRC famously during WW2 Canada started drafting people but wasn’t too gung-ho about it. Apparently an easy out was to simply reply to your mailed draft notice “(So-and-so) doesn’t live here anymore” in so-and-so’s hand writing and return address and the government never bothered to follow up. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/28 "2018-12-10T09:40:21Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > My grandfather joined voluntarily and after 9 months was Section 8ed because he couldn’t read. This was at the beginning of the war–later standards may have been loosened. I read somewhere, re World War I – admittedly, a time when things were different – about a US general who preferred illiterate soldiers as his message-runners. This was on the grounds that when you can’t read or write, you need to develop a good memory. The illiterate guys got the general’s messages off, word-perfect, and delivered them thus. The general claimed that he’d much rather have this, than clever-clever college-educated so-and-so’s bearing written messages by him; with their tendency to find fault with his writing style, and thus to alter his wording to something they liked better. An interestingly paradoxical take on this issue, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/29 "2018-12-10T10:34:36Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > in the US in the past if people wanted to avoid service they could just say they were gay (prior to don’t ask, don’t tell) I don’t think you had to prove you were gay. Again, it depended on just how far behiund its quota your draft board was. Someplaces and times its was an immidiate DQ. Other places you would be placed in, with a note in your file to keep an eye on you. Apparently the best way to avoid frontline service was to know how to type. That was a good way to get sent to the clerk pool. Pls see ([https://www.amazon.com/Chance-Circumstance-Draft-Vietnam-Generation/dp/0394412753](https://www.amazon.com/Chance-Circumstance-Draft-Vietnam-Generation/dp/0394412753)) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/30 "2018-12-10T12:18:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The army will always need cooks, drivers, quartermasters, and guys to sweep the walkways and paint the trees. OKay, I have to ask - was that a joke or is tree-painting a real military thing? > [@Chronos](#): > > [Moderating] > > Let’s keep the political potshots out of GQ, please, even if they aren’t specific to either party. Point accepted, although it was meant as a “generic politician joke” rather than a commentary on any actual politicians. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > in the US in the past if people wanted to avoid service they could just say they were gay (prior to don’t ask, don’t tell) I don’t think you had to prove you were gay. But there were social consequences to that, and potentially legal ones depending on the time period involved. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/31 "2018-12-10T17:07:41Z")
> [@GinoC](#): > > There is a book called “Mcnamara’s Folly” by Hamilton Gregory that goes into great detail on the programme to drastically lower mental standards in order to fill the ranks during the Vietnam War. These young men numbered over 300,000 it is estimated, and their stories are truly tragic. That’s actually something of a fascinating story and a tragic one. Apparently the thinking was that these men were mostly poor and judged unsuitable for military service due to their background and lack of education. So McNamara and Daniel Patrick Moynihan started an experiment to induct a bunch of them, train them up, teach them what they didn’t know, and make soldiers out of them. Seems like a noble idea on its face. Problem was, they really were mentally deficient, not just under-educated poor men. About the only job they could hack was trigger-pulling, so they got shunted to the infantry, but they weren’t sharp enough to be competent infantrymen either, so they got killed in disproportionate numbers. > **[Desperate for Vietnam War Troops, the U.S. Hatched a Plan to 'Salvage'...](https://www.historynet.com/mcnamaras-boys/?f)** > > "Project 100,000" was sold to the public as a compassionate rescue mission. The recruits died in disproportionate numbers. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/32 "2018-12-10T17:29:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s actually something of a fascinating story and a tragic one. Apparently the thinking was that these men were mostly poor and judged unsuitable for military service due to their background and lack of education. So McNamara and Daniel Patrick Moynihan started an experiment to induct a bunch of them, train them up, teach them what they didn’t know, and make soldiers out of them. Seems like a noble idea on its face. > > Problem was, they really were mentally deficient, not just under-educated poor men. About the only job they could hack was trigger-pulling, so they got shunted to the infantry, but they weren’t sharp enough to be competent infantrymen either, so they got killed in disproportionate numbers. > > [How a Plan to 'Salvage' Vietnam Recruits Ended Disastrously | HistoryNet](http://www.historynet.com/mcnamaras-boys.htm) To be fair, I recall reading that WWI exposed the fact that many “mentally deficient” draftees were in fact simply suffering from malnutrition (vitamin deficits? Pellagra?) due to improper diet, especially southern farm boys - and being in an environment with a good diet noticably reduced their problems. Perhaps McNamara thought this was applicable to the current generation. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/33 "2018-12-10T17:39:57Z")
> [@Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](#): > > In Finland they either give you a lower service class and tell you not to bother or in some cases tell you to try again later. If you get B service class you still need to go but you’ll end up doing something boring that doesn’t require much of you. We had a bunch of B-class guys in the same room when I was in the army, one (who had broken half the bones in his body one at a time doing stupid stunts) spent his time at the transport company’s gas/oil depot and almost went insane from boredom. > > We also had a 137 kg heavy guy who also was B-class, can’t remember what he ended up doing though. Might have been an ambulance driver. On the other hand one of the guys that started at the same time as me ended up getting kicked out because of his bad asthma. Quite a few of the people who were told to come back later were young men who couldn’t handle being away from home and the army hoped that at least some of them could do better after maturing a bit. I knew a grad student from Finland who was grossly overweight\*. Before he went back to Finland, after finishing up his degree, he went on a crash diet and lost an astonishing amount of weight, so he could serve. Either he was driven by patriotism, or there’s some advantage to doing your service in the regular way. \*He went on a trip where there were several pregnant wives of faculty members and married grad students. At one point they lined them all up, along with him, bellies prominent. He looked the most pregnant of them all. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/34 "2018-12-10T18:15:07Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > … if you are just not cut out for the military? Like if you have a developmental disability, or have some chronic disease, or are just too porky and out-of-shape for military service? I cannot say for korea… In South africa, in the 1980’s… Fat: They will fix that. Pronto. reference: Gomer Pyle from Full Metal Jacket. Too Stupid: wot? Too stupid? This is the military we are talking about!! You would need to approach SINGLE-digit IQ before that becomes a problem. You would literally need to be retarded enough to not comprehend a simple verbal order of “come”“go"sit”, to be exempt. This means most trained Dogs were smart enough for Service. Too criminal: No problem, you just spent your 2 years of duty time in the DB (army jail) Conscientious objector: DB-jail, for longer time. Scary stories abound… Genuine medical problem preventing you for something as strenuous as sitting behind a desk doing admin: Rejected for service, which carried an enormous social stigma that while not exactly legal was nonetheless embraced by the system. Employment by any government department or agency impossible. Travel visa _very_ problematic. Political career, even local dogcatcher, zero chance. They did not make it easy to disagree with the system. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/35 "2018-12-10T19:17:05Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Either he was driven by patriotism, or there’s some advantage to doing your service in the regular way. Or maybe some dire disadvantage to NOT doing your service. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/36 "2018-12-10T20:55:02Z")
It depends on the country and the time: I heard that South Korea has a real problem with too many young people being severely overweight for the army. Some start actively binge eating just to avoid conscription. I was in West-Berlin during the time there was no conscription there and heard many tales of how young men tried to avoid military service in the FRG, were there was. Some tried to fake conditions, for many it did not work, so they had to “flee” to Berlin in a haste. Some joked everyone was deemed fit to serve, they could always be used as hostages in case of conflict. They really wanted you back then. I read that in the USA it would have been impossible for you to serve during the Vietnam War even if you really wanted to if you had heel spurs. The consequences were dire in the long term, though. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/37 "2018-12-12T18:00:14Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I read that in the USA it would have been impossible for you to serve during the Vietnam War even if you really wanted to if you had heel spurs. The consequences were dire in the long term, though. I laughed out loud, Pardel. 😛 j ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749/38 "2018-12-12T18:50:45Z")
[Moderating] True or not, funny or not, that’s still a political jab, which is not allowed in the General Questions forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-countries-with-mandatory-military-service-what-happens-if-youre-too-fat-too-sick-too-dumb/825749.md?page=1)