# In Defence of Imus and Disgust for Sharpton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743 "2007-04-12T01:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/301 "2007-04-14T19:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] Well said, **ywtf**. [/quote] That’s funny, I’m not getting the same message from you as **you with the face** > [@](#): > > Since we’re seemingly discussing misogyny in hip hop now, I’ll say what I’ve said a million times before on this board: the vilification of African-American art is one of the great American pastimes. Whether it’s blues, R&B, rock 'n roll, or jazz, African-American music forms are often targeted as negative influences, etc. All those genres of music were at one time vilfied, but its been damn near half a century and has no relevance to the current discussion other than to explain the silence of the mainstream community for their abhorence of this music as I pointed out earlier. Hip hop or whatever you call it describing hos and bitches with abandon has clearly been established as objectionable in the black community as well. That’s different. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, White American kids sneak the records in behind their parents’ backs, listen and love the music, then start to produce it themselves. At best, the end result is an amazing form of music that is truly a melting pot of cultural influences. Amazing? > [@](#): > > Thing is, I would argue that the forms of music that African-Americans developed are reflective of societal trends. They’re not innovating or producing new ones. And guess what? Our American culture has a violent, misogynistic side. I’m amused at the furor over hip hop, because I don’t remember people whingeing about Tawny Kitaen sprawled over the hood of a car in a Whitesnake video. Sure, some people thought it was a little OTT, but not so much with the gnashing of the teeth and so forth. Well, considering the media didn’t make a big stink about it and we really haven’t heard much about previous objection to hip hop in the media as well, this point has little relevance > [@](#): > > If you grew up in the 80s like me you saw half-naked women on MTV all the freakin’ time. With White artists. Especially hair metal bands. They all had the same formula: hot chick with moussed bangs, in leather, crawling around on stage. Where was the protest and the anger then? I think most of us never saw it. > [@](#): > > Listen, there is a strong element in the African-American community that disparages misogyny and violence in hip hop. There’s a lot of people who don’t care much one way or the other. There’s a strong element that feels as I do: popular music always appeals to the lowest common denominator; when suits and corporate types get involved, they only go after the most hackneyed, exaggerated, buffoonish versions; and aspiring artists often succumb to the will of A&R types and record company corporate leaders. That’s why you had MC Hammer abandon his party/gospel version of hip hop for the dreadful “Pumps and a Bump.” Market forces. If the point of your post is to spread the blame for this “amazing” music, then I would agree with you(except for the “amazing”). ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/302 "2007-04-14T20:16:14Z")
oops. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/303 "2007-04-14T20:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] All those genres of music were at one time vilfied, but its been damn near half a century and has no relevance to the current discussion other than to explain the silence of the mainstream community for their abhorence of this music as I pointed out earlier. Hip hop or whatever you call it describing hos and bitches with abandon has clearly been established as objectionable in the black community as well. That’s different. [/quote] Actually, it’s quite relevant. When a genre is clearly identifiable as Black, it’s vilified. If it goes away and comes back… dare I say, whitewashed, then it’s a wonderful part of cultural history. Black music, IMO, has always been forceful and critical. When the force and critique is absent, then people are happy to frolic to the beat. > [@](#): > > Amazing? Well, actually, I was referring to how rock 'n roll is this amazing hybrid of Black rock music, skiffle from the Brits in the 60s… but I think you think that me stating that hip hop is amazing, well I think it is. So do a lot of people in this country and around the world. > [@](#): > > Well, considering the media didn’t make a big stink about it and we really haven’t heard much about previous objection to hip hop in the media as well, this point has little relevance Wha…? In response to the first issue, that’s my point. It wasn’t terribly bothersome when White guys wearing eyeliner had half-naked women crawling around on their videos. Second point - please recall controversies about N.W.A. and their album Efil4zaggin, the legal mess that Luke and the 2 Live Crew got into in Florida, or Ice-T and “Cop Killer.” (In fairness it was Body Count and it was thrash metal, but hey! It’s a Black guy talking through a song.) > [@](#): > > I think most of us never saw it. Well, I’ll let the collective masses respond, but if you watched MTV from 1985-1990 religiously like I did, that’s all you saw. Ozzy. Billy Idol. Winger. Whitesnake. Great White. Poison. I could go on, but I won’t. > [@](#): > > If the point of your post is to spread the blame for this “amazing” music, then I would agree with you(except for the “amazing”). Well, in part. Go up to the White men who are the corporate directors of Universal, Interscope, and so forth, and ask them why they are objectifying Black women through their promotion of and encouragement of artists who engage in such behavior. They are equally, if not majoritively responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/304 "2007-04-14T21:23:41Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] All those genres of music were at one time vilfied, but its been damn near half a century and has no relevance to the current discussion other than to explain the silence of the mainstream community for their abhorence of this music as I pointed out earlier. … Well, considering the media didn’t make a big stink about it and we really haven’t heard much about previous objection to hip hop in the media as well, this point has little relevance … I think most of us never saw it. [/QUOTE] Hip hop isn’t mainstream, there’s never been a media stink about violent rap music, and most people have never seen MTV. Yeah, you’ve really got your finger on the pulse of America, **Dutchman**. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/305 "2007-04-14T21:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Hip hop isn’t mainstream, there’s never been a media stink about violent rap music, and most people have never seen MTV. Yeah, you’ve really got your finger on the pulse of America, **Dutchman**. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t have put it so convincingly, but I appreciate the endorsement of my contribution to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/306 "2007-04-14T21:44:53Z")
I don’t know where you live, **Flying Dutchman** , but I agree with **Miller** that you don’t seem to be in tuned to American culture. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/307 "2007-04-14T21:50:05Z")
I have to admit I don’t follow Imus and when this story broke I thought it might be a one-time gaffe. Then I read [This editorial](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301872.html?hpid=opinionsbox2) by the W. Post’s Colbert King. > [@](#): > > Don Imus’s descent into the derogatory didn’t start with “nappy-headed hos.” > > There’s his putdown of an African American sports columnist at the New York Times as a “quota hire,” and his reference to African American journalist Gwen Ifill as a “cleaning lady” when she covered the White House for the New York Times. What about evidence that Imus had said he had hired a staffer to do “nigger” jokes? How about his deplorable references, as my Post colleague Michael Wilbon wrote, to black athletes as apes? > [@](#): > > In the release, Foxman said that in a December 2004 broadcast, "Mr. Imus referred to publishers of a new book called ‘The Christmas Thief’ as ‘thieving Jews.’ Later on the same program, he attempted to apologize for that remark by saying (of thieving Jews), ‘I apologize, I realize that’s redundant.’ " Holy flurking schnitt! Why the fuck wasn’t this guy fired years ago!? How the hell can anyone defend him? And what does Sharpton or Jackson have to do with anything? The only thing I can say about his firing is better late than never. All the ranches in the world don’t make up for this garbage. Sorry if this post contains material already covered. I haven’t read the whole thread, just felt like sharing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/308 "2007-04-14T22:18:15Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I don’t know where you live, **Flying Dutchman** , but I agree with **Miller** that you don’t seem to be in tuned to American culture. [/QUOTE] You know, I totally agree with you.In fact, one of these days I plan to start a thread providing my perceptions on the difference between the American psyche about important westwern issues and my backwoods Canadian upper middle aged year old counterpart(other Canadians may disagree). The theme will be that the origin of liberal issues arise in the Unitred states but never quite gets resolved while here in Canada we adopt the dialogue and quickly put the issue to rest. In favour of the liberals mind you, but I strongly suspect that is the case in other western countries. For example, we don’t have shock jocks and when we have hate speech, it only attracts public attention when the offence is serious, and we deal with that promptly, through our laws, and then put it behind us. Like our elections, we get resolution quickly. I do pay attention to the American media, Cnn, CBS, NBC, ABC, and PBS in addition to CBC, Global and CTV. I don’t get Fox, Limbaugh , Imus or HBO for that matter but I also see a complete other American world here at the SDMB. I suspect the media tones down the animosity and polarization that is quite evident from real Americans on this board. I honestly feel fortunate to listen in on you guys here. As far as hip hop goes, I haven’t heard much about it here yet. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/309 "2007-04-14T23:45:26Z")
Then perhaps you shouldn’t be trying to tell us that we’re wrong about Imus and such. You think? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/310 "2007-04-15T00:23:48Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Then perhaps you shouldn’t be trying to tell us that we’re wrong about Imus and such. You think? [/QUOTE] Hey, just because as a foreigner I may not have a full understanding of your American culture doesn’t mean I should shut up Is that really you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/311 "2007-04-15T11:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Hey, just because as a foreigner I may not have a full understanding of your American culture doesn’t mean I should shut up Is that really you? [/QUOTE] No, that’s not what I meant. Rather, you should stop assuming you know _better_ than those of us who actually live here. Up until recently, I believe you admitted you didn’t even know all that much about Imus. Nor did you know the meaning of “ho” or “nappy-headed”. And yet, you lecture us on whether or not we should find it offensive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/312 "2007-04-15T12:38:57Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] No, that’s not what I meant. Rather, you should stop assuming you know _better_ than those of us who actually live here. Up until recently, I believe you admitted you didn’t even know all that much about Imus. [/quote] Well thankyou for the clarification. I honestly don’t believe that I know better than anyone else. I do have opinions that I like to share for debate. I didn’t think that was a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/313 "2007-04-15T13:00:21Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] I do have opinions that I like to share for debate. I didn’t think that was a bad thing. [/QUOTE] 'Tisn’t. Arguing from ignorance is. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/314 "2007-04-15T15:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] Black music, IMO, has always been forceful and critical. When the force and critique is absent, then people are happy to frolic to the beat. [/QUOTE] Can we exclude jazz from that statement? I agree that many people prefer the whitewashed version, but the Black jazz geniuses are honored, and respected, and their music played with all it’s force and power. If I went to church, it would be [this one.](http://www.coltranechurch.org/) As a matter of fact, I think I’ll cue up\* A Love Supreme\* right now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/315 "2007-04-15T16:15:56Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Holy flurking schnitt! Why the fuck wasn’t this guy fired years ago!? How the hell can anyone defend him? And what does Sharpton or Jackson have to do with anything? [/QUOTE] [Atrios has a theory about that](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_04_15_atrios_archive.html#117664873612875068): > [@](#): > > **Memo to the Media** > > Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are not the only black people in America, and more than that they do not have the ability to force themselves onto your news shows. There’s a pattern here: > > 1. Bigot eruption somewhere > 2. Lots of people condemn it > 3. Al Sharpton goes on every teevee program > 4. The media people turn around and use Sharpton’s past as a distraction/excuse for the current bigot eruption > > If Al Sharpton is an imperfect spokesperson for an issue, and you keep putting him on the teevee to be the spokesperson for that issue, then the obvious conclusion is that this is a deliberate strategy. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/316 "2007-04-15T16:21:59Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [Atrios has a theory about that](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_04_15_atrios_archive.html#117664873612875068): [/QUOTE] That makes perfect sense to me. I’m actually surprised that people don’t seem to put 1 and 1 together like this more often. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/317 "2007-04-15T17:00:10Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] But you said they shouldn’t care about the bottom line. They should care about sponsoring free speech. To refresh your memory, you wrote: [/quote] Maybe that wasn’t clear, but the implication was that we as consumers shouldn’t be mad that the people we buy our talcum powder from sponsor even speech we don’t like: i.e. consumers have the power. I’m sorry you read it differently. > [@](#): > > Reduced to its elementary form, you’re saying someone should buy something even if they don’t want it. This is not the American way. The only trick you guys seem to have up your sleeves is trying to attack straw men. If you want talcum powder, but the talcum powder. If the talcum powder company happens to sponsor a program you don’t like, trying to sell talcum powder to people you don’t like, what I’m saying is that a commitment to free speech means not getting your panties all in a bunch about it. > [@](#): > > You _were_ talking about the sponsors. You may not be talking ONLY about sponsors, but you were talking about them too. Sponsors are only going to sponsor what their are listeners for that make up a market for them. Boycotts, in addition, do have the power to affect them, and I’m saying that they are a bad thing. > [@](#): > > Why though? > > If I can lobby a sponsor to support a program, why is it so awful for me to try to dissuade a sponsor to remove its support? Maybe that sponsor is unaware of the negative press surrounding that program and would appreciate the heads-up. Because the impulse to punish speech you don’t like and try to remove it from civil society is a bad one. It’s illiberal. It’s not consistent with a commitment to a free market of ideas. > [@](#): > > I fully understand free speech, thankyouverymuch. I just don’t think free speech is more sacred than free market action. Again, this is a fantasy you guys seem to have cooked up. It makes no sense. I’m not saying that people don’t have a free market right to lobby companies. I’m saying that they should refrain from doing so if their goal is to punish people for speech they don’t like, censor venues, and restrict what OTHER people choose to listen to. > [@](#): > > It is you who doesn’t seem to understand free speech. You seem to put “lobbying for” in a different category than “lobbying against”. They are the same thing. Not if you value free speech as a real ideal, as opposed to an empty commitment that just happens to be law. > [@](#): > > Yes, that’s me to a “T”. While you’re Fred Phelps Family, screaming “GOD HATES FAGS” at the funerals of Iraqi vets and expecting to be left alone because “free speech, man”. > > See how fun it is to resort to stupid, inaccurate metaphors when you’ve run out of things to say. Shrug. My metaphors are accurate, and yours are not: saying otherwise isn’t the same thing as being right about it. Free speech means that we have tolerate the existence of things we don’t necessarily like, and refrain from seeking out to shut them down. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/318 "2007-04-15T17:07:50Z")
Wait, so Sharpton and Jackson are actually _agents_ (unwitting, I assume) of the Evil White American Power Structure, used as expedients in the media in order to _support_ bigotry and keep it alive and well? Is that the theory? That particular set of "1"s has a few unlikely dots connecting them, I think, although I can see why it’s good fodder for our conspiracy theorists. A simpler explanation is that the media give Sharpton and Jackson airtime because they are highly recognizable figures, they both make careers out of inserting themselves into racial controversies, they attract viewers (both admiring and contemptuous), and they’re ready any day, any time for a photo op, interview, or press conference. I think the big media are fundamentally lazy, and when it comes time to present the “black perspective,” they’re going to go with the famous scion of the black community who’s knocking on their door, rather than go out and scour the country for the best and brightest unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/319 "2007-04-15T17:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] You mean calls for economic boycotts like [this](http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/rnr/310868354.html) and [this](http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.don-imus/browse_thread/thread/e0772da03ed19946/a8f8f76fb22697f1?lnk=raot&hl=en) and [this](http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070409233704AAOceVL)? [/quote] Exactly! Am I making progress with you then? > [@](#): > > If you feel that an “entire venue” is supporting something bad and dangerous, it is perfectly ethically to organize a boycott. People are free to ignore calls for that boycott. And people are free to ignore the effects of that boycott. I don’t know about ethical just like I don’t know about consistency. All things equal, I don’t see why they couldn’t be ethical and consistent, and certainly they are perfectly legal. What I’ve argued is if you value free speech, however, then its wrong. > [@](#): > > Yes we are, **Apos**. A commerical would be if Sharpton got on the air and said “Let’s support MSNBC, because they are good people.” An anti-commercial would be if Sharpton got on the air and said “Let’s not support MSNBC, because they are bad people”. They are objectively the same thing. People are equally free to ignore both or listen to both. Boycotts and advertising are both ways to control people’s spending habits. As a supporter of the First Amendment, you can’t favor one over the other. You cannot. Good grief. Are you really trying this hard to not see a distinction between trying to get messages heard and trying to prevent messages from being heard? Your attempt here to try and argue that I’m somehow in favor of restricting free speech is ridiculous. It’s like the tolerance of intolerance argument. Yes, I _support_ the idea that someone CAN try to lobby and boycott away something other people want to listen to. What I’m arguing is that it is BAD to do so if you value free speech and the free exchange of ideas. The same way that I support the free speech of someone to argue that we should put homosexuals to death, but can still argue that anyone committed to liberty shouldn’t argue that they should be. > [@](#): > > If I think something’s immoral and contributing to the breakdown of society, I don’t think it’s disrespectful to the First Amendment for me to express this viewpoint. In fact, I think it affirms it, especially if my words are persuasive enough that it evokes change. Sure, but what does that have to do with what I’ve been arguing? I’m against actions taken to try and lobby away speech and prevent OTHER PEOPLE from listening to something you don’t like via economic threats. Telling people that something is bad and evil and so forth is 100% cool. Telling them that they should cover their ears though, perhaps is not. And acting to try to take away even the opportunity to listen to something they want to listen to (perhaps because you’ve failed to convince them) is not. Not if you think they are adults. But you know better than they do, right? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743/320 "2007-04-15T17:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Maybe that wasn’t clear, but the implication was that we as consumers shouldn’t be mad that the people we buy our talcum powder from sponsor even speech we don’t like: i.e. consumers have the power. I’m sorry you read it differently. [/quote] But this still is ludicrous! I wouldn’t buy talcum powder from the Taliban or from the KKK or from the Fred Phelps Family. I wouldn’t buy talcum powder from anyone who advocates killing gays, white women, or prairie dogs. Why would I give money to people who support things I think are immoral and evil? Or say immoral and evil things? I wouldn’t buy talcum powder from someone who says **monstro is a nappy-headed whore**. You’re saying I’m wrong for being so discriminating? > [@](#): > > The only trick you guys seem to have up your sleeves is trying to attack straw men. I’m just one person, dude. > [@](#): > > If you want talcum powder, but the talcum powder. If the talcum powder company happens to sponsor a program you don’t like, trying to sell talcum powder to people you don’t like, what I’m saying is that a commitment to free speech means not getting your panties all in a bunch about it. Would you support a talcum powder company who sponsors only white-separatist, KKK and neo-Nazi organizations? If you received a pamphlet for a KKK rally which announced that it was sponsored by the Anglo-Saxon Powder Company, would you make the personal decision to buy up a heap of their products? If you did, wouldn’t it be understandable if someone decided your purchases indicated something about your sympathy towards the white-seperatist cause? A person who organizes an ethical boycott does not physically bar anyone from buying anything. It’s not like they snatch items out of people’s hands at the check-out counter, or blocks access to the grocery store aisle. They raise awareness about a product or the makers of that product and then let the consumer decide what to do. That’s all a friggin’ boycott is. You want to allow corporations to cram advertising down our throats, but you think it’s wrong for organizations concerned with the ethics of these corporations to do the same exact thing. You favor one form of control but not the other. Don’t you see how contradictory this is? > [@](#): > > Sponsors are only going to sponsor what their are listeners for that make up a market for them. Boycotts, in addition, do have the power to affect them, and I’m saying that they are a bad thing. Let me ask you: Do you feel this way about _all_ boycotts? Because if you do, I have to question whether you’re really an American. The country was built on the concept of boycott. If you feel like boycotts are immoral, why are you living in a country that gained independence through, in part, the power of the boycott? Go back to Britain and drink your over-taxed tea, whydon’tyou. > [@](#): > > Because the impulse to punish speech you don’t like and try to remove it from civil society is a bad one. It’s illiberal. It’s not consistent with a commitment to a free market of ideas. Wah wah wah. For the eleventy-billionth time, free speech does mean “free from consequence”. Let me ask another honest question: If Tom Brokaw had called the basketball players “nappy-headed jigaboo hos”, do you think _he_ should have lost his job? What if he couldn’t get through a newsreport without stammering and stuttering? What if the guy had Tourette’s and screamed “NIGGER BROWN” every time a black person was featured in a story? Would NBC have been morally bound to keep the man because “free speech, man”? Or could Tom Brokaw reasonably expect to be fired? Just like anyone of us would, if our employers decided we were embarrassing them? > [@](#): > > Again, this is a fantasy you guys seem to have cooked up. It makes no sense. I’m not saying that people don’t have a free market right to lobby companies. I’m saying that they should refrain from doing so if their goal is to punish people for speech they don’t like, censor venues, and restrict what OTHER people choose to listen to. Let’s look at the Montegomery bus boycott. Are you saying the boycotters were bad guys? Did they try to punish people? No. Punishing would be setting fire to the buses and harrassing the drivers. Did they take anything way from the other riders? No. The other riders were perfectly free to continue supporting the bus system. New riders were perfectly free to contribute their support to the bus system. The bus system was perfectly free to continue its practices. And the boycotters were perfectly free to wear their shoes thin walking miles and miles. The bus company was not entitled to their money in the first place. The boycotters didn’t hurt them. The bus company _hurt itself_. Just like Imus is not entitled to money from CBS, MSNBC, Proctor and Gamble, or GM. His sponsors didn’t hurt him. _He hurt himself_. Advocating against the boycott goes against the very concept of a free market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-imus-and-disgust-for-sharpton/399743.md?page=17)