# In defence of Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166 "2022-08-06T00:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1 "2022-08-06T00:49:24Z")
In [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24/960037/), @puzzlegal wrote: > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6893): > > Moderating: > > @Kedikat and those arguing with @Kedikat : this is the MPSIMS breaking news thread. It is not in p&e and this is not the right place for political arguments. Please everyone take that stuff somewhere else, such as a new p&e or pit thread. > > I have not been actively monitoring this thread. If there are any more politicized posts, please report them and I’ll moderate, which might include warnings and/or thread bans. The issue is that @Kedikat seems to be an apologist for Russian aggression in Ukraine, and that others (myself included) disagree. In accordance to moderator instructions, I’m posting this thread to provide an outlet for Kedikat and others to discuss the issue. I’m putting it in The BBQ Pit because the discussion may become heated. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/2 "2022-08-06T01:55:52Z")
> [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6853): > > I personally think Russia could have been a bit more patient regarding negotiating about NATO membership and even pressing more diplomatically over actually enforcing the Minsk agreement. 1. Russia has zero right to say who does and does not join NATO 2. The “Minsk agreement” was only ever worth the paper it was written on. In case that’s not clear, it was a verbal agreement - no paper, no actual agreement. 3. The Russian government is certainly allowed an opinion about what other nations do, but that does not extend to imposing their opinion on other, sovereign nations I am failing to try and quote over to here, so I copy pasted. This completely wrong one. You do not sign a verbal agreement. As it was signed, on paper. > **[Minsk agreements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements)** > > The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine, with Russian regular forces playing a central part. The first, known as the Minsk Protocol, was drafted in 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), with mediation by the leaders of France and Germany in the The agr... ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/3 "2022-08-06T02:02:11Z")
The Donbas areas have not, in fact, declared independence. Copy and pasted too. Another false one. Although Wiki declares the referendums moot. They took place and the majority did not want to remain a part of Ukraine. It is common for some countries to declare moot what they disagree with. If one looks at the ethnic makeup of Donbass regions and Crimea, it is no surprise that the majority of the folks wanted to separate from Ukraine, which was passing laws to erase their ethnicity. I do not exclude Russia past or present from also choosing to ignore realities it does not like. But it certainly is not alone in this. > **[2014 Donbas status referendums](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Referendums on the status of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, parts of Ukraine that together make up the Donbas region, were claimed to have taken place on 11 May 2014 in many towns under the control of the Russian-controlled Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. These referendums intended to legitimise the establishment of the so-called "republics", in the context of the Russian invasion of Crimea and rising pro-Russian unrest in the aftermath of... ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/4 "2022-08-06T02:09:38Z")
> [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6853): > > Nations have their security concerns. All through history a nation will go to war when those concerns are pressed far enough. Ukraine was ZERO threat to the Russia Federation. Aside from being smaller, poorer, and having a smaller military, it had surrendered its nuclear capability in return for a promise for its borders to be respected. NATO is not a threat to Russia (except in the mind of some Russians who, regrettably, seem to be in charge there). Don’t want NATO to fight you? Don’t attack a NATO member. The only thing NATO was a threat to here was Russia ambition to conquer a weaker neighbor. Russia started this war, full stop. It is entirely the fault of Russia, no one else. I agree, Ukraine itself was not a threat. But its military was being trained to NATO integration standards. It desired to be in NATO. If in NATO there would be NATO bases in it. That is a threat to Russia. Also, one does not have to attack NATO to be attacked by NATO. NATO has conducted military operations against those who have not attacked NATO members. I agree, Russia started the war. Obviously. But one should not ignore the reasons for wars starting. Past and present, wars could have been averted. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/5 "2022-08-06T02:14:34Z")
Apologies for how disjointed my posts are. I don’t know if it is possible to get that nice Quote feature to work across threads. There is a bit of a backlog from another thread, that I am replying to here. As Johnny\_L.A. decided to start this alternative thread. But I will not drag all of that over here. Some is just opinion, which is great, so I don’t feel a need to retort to great extent. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/6 "2022-08-06T02:15:01Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Russia started this war, full stop. It is entirely the fault of Russia, no one else. Thank you. > [@Kedikat](#): > > Ukraine itself was not a threat. But its military was being trained to NATO integration standards. It desired to be in NATO. If in NATO there would be NATO bases in it. That is a threat to Russia. But if Russia did manage to conquer Ukraine, guess what? They’d have NATO on their border! By your logic, Russia would then have to conquer Poland. > [@Kedikat](#): > > Also, one does not have to attack NATO to be attacked by NATO. NATO has conducted military operations against those who have not attacked NATO members. I believe @Broomstick addressed this in the other thread. I’ll let her respond. > [@Kedikat](#): > > I agree, Russia started the war. Obviously. But one should not ignore the reasons for wars starting. Because Putin felt like it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/7 "2022-08-06T02:20:06Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Apologies for how disjointed my posts are. I don’t know if it is possible to get that nice Quote feature to work across threads. If you can’t figure out the quote feature, the least you could do is put the quoted part in quotation marks and add who said it, like so: “Apologies for how disjointed my posts are. I don’t know if it is possible to get that nice Quote feature to work across threads.” -Kedikat. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/8 "2022-08-06T02:21:23Z")
Is there a way to grab a quote from another thread? I will try and get it clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/9 "2022-08-06T02:22:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Because Putin felt like it? I look forward to, and expect, more of this sort of well thought out, in depth replies. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/10 "2022-08-06T02:22:34Z")
Open the thread in a new window. Quote the post. Copy and paste the post into this thread. (That’s how I quoted puzzlegal in the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/11 "2022-08-06T02:23:47Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I look forward to, and expect, more of this sort of well thought out, in depth replies. When it comes down to it, this is the answer. Russia had ZERO provocation for invading a sovereign nation. They invaded because Putin wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/12 "2022-08-06T02:25:04Z")
So what provocation did NATO have to bomb Libya? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/13 "2022-08-06T02:25:54Z")
Putin is a fucking thug that doesn’t give a shit about anything but acquiring and keeping power. He will steal, kill and physically intimidate, and if the intimidation doesn’t work, he assassinates as a lesson to others. Is that in depth enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/14 "2022-08-06T02:26:27Z")
No. It is not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/15 "2022-08-06T02:26:48Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > So what provocation did NATO have to bomb Libya? “Look! Over there!!” Fuck that-Let’s talk about Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/16 "2022-08-06T02:27:27Z")
Just using the same tactics that others are using. But of course they are only just if your side uses them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/17 "2022-08-06T02:28:47Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > So what provocation did NATO have to bomb Libya? While the intervention was NATO-led, it was the UN who ordered the attacks. The UN is not NATO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/18 "2022-08-06T02:29:16Z")
Life’s a bitch, ain’t it? With Putin, that is all the depth there is, so that is all the depth you’re going to get…unless you want to lie about him, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/19 "2022-08-06T02:29:19Z")
Correct. So why did NATO do the bombing? Is NATO under the command of the U.N.? No. Unless it pleases them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/20 "2022-08-06T02:30:42Z")
> **[2011 military intervention in Libya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya)** > > NATO/Anti-Gaddafi victory >  NATO\[a\] >  Jordan Qatar Sweden United Arab Emirates [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166.md?page=2)