# In defence of Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166 "2022-08-06T00:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1081 "2023-05-13T04:44:25Z")
Ukraine forces hold only a tiny portion of the very western edge of Bakhmut. It is lost. If Ukraine tries to retake it, it will be a terrible waste of personnel and materiel. They should not even be wasting effort to try and force what will be a temporary push back of the Russian flanks. Just get your guys out ASAP. If you can lessen the losses of that then great. But get out. Why Ukraine is doing this, I do not know. I feel it is a mistake. I am just saying what they are doing. They pushed back some. But I do not think it is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1082 "2023-05-13T04:47:16Z")
Russian forces have not retreated from Bakhmut. They have retreated from the front most positions of their flanking positions round Bakhmut. In the city only a small area has been going back and forth. Most is held and or being advanced on. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1083 "2023-05-13T04:49:03Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Enjoy the growing blue color of recently recaptured Ukrainian territory southwest of Bakhmut in just the past 24 hours on DeepStateMap Komrad! That is basically what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1084 "2023-05-13T04:54:21Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Why Ukraine is doing this, I do not know. You don’t know much. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1085 "2023-05-13T05:01:39Z")
Russian command has very publicly announced, quite some time ago that they are perfectly willing to give up ground. If Ukraine forces are willing to amass and attack in force. The Russians will retreat while pounding the advancing Ukraine forces with artillery and such. Then incrementally take back the ground as they can. Attrition. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1086 "2023-05-13T05:07:44Z")
I’m feeling such deja vu. I swear I’ve heard this sort of thing before. [![](https://i.imgflip.com/48m6m7.jpg) ](https://i.imgflip.com/48m6m7.jpg) I just can’t remember where though. I’m sure it’ll come to me eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1087 "2023-05-13T05:47:01Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > In the city only a small area has been going back and forth. Most is held and or being advanced on. Psst… hey dumbass. You’re describing the past TEN FUCKING MONTHS with this being the primary focus of Russian offensive operations and Russia still not being able to take the city. Verdun was over quicker and had more territory change hands. Oh, and Germany went into that one with the plan to out-attrit the French, force them to commit their strategic reserves and have them eroded away but Germany ended up coming out on the losing side of the attrition. Bakhmut wasn’t supposed to be an attritional battle, it became one when Russia proved again to be incapable of conducting proper combined arms battles. And they’ve been heavily on the losing side of the attrition at Bakhmut from the beginning. Oh, and about that attrition that Russia has supposedly been inflicting on Ukraine, apart from you everyone and their mother is well aware that Ukraine has husbanded their reserves for the upcoming Spring offensive. Even your boy Prigozhin says that this is what they have been doing, and he says they have accumulated a strategic reserve of 200,000 trained men for the Spring offensive while Russia has been bleeding away its strength in pointless and bloody attacks at Bakhmut, Avdiivka, and repeatedly driving their tanks into minefields at Vuhledar. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1088 "2023-05-13T05:57:45Z")
It’s like trying to win a boxing match by head-butting your opponent’s fists repeatedly, in the hope that you’ll break his hands (or at least tire him out). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1089 "2023-05-13T12:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Russia has regrouped to “more advantageous defensive positions” north of Bakhmut, [Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov](https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2023/05/12/minoboroni-zayavilo-o-peregruppirovke-posle-obvinenii-v-begstve-iz-pod-bahmuta-a42740) said Friday. “We’re not retreating, we’re strategically regrouping to draw the enemy in so we can crush him.” The Russians sound like they’re taking their cues from the Japanese military circa 1943. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1090 "2023-05-13T12:46:51Z")
And taking their orders from the leaders of F Troop. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1091 "2023-05-13T15:35:39Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > The Russians will retreat while pounding the advancing Ukraine forces with artillery and such. Then incrementally take back the ground as they can. Meanwhile on Earth, where reality happens, the Russians have simply been routed and fled whenever Ukraine actually makes an advance. No artillery pounding has been happening because the Ukrainians aren’t attacking with massed troops. Instead, they’ve been using [maneuver warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare), because they’re not fucking morons like the folks who think attrition is a great idea. Oh, and the Russians haven’t been taking back any ground they’ve lost, because they can’t. They’ve been too busy wasting time, money, resources and people trying to take Bakhmut. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1092 "2023-05-13T17:14:12Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > The Russians will retreat while pounding the advancing Ukraine forces with artillery and such There’s the problem. [It’s hard](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-assesses-up-60-failure-rate-some-russian-missiles-officials-say-2022-03-24/) to acquire dependable [munitions](http://asiatimes.com/2022/09/is-russian-weaponry-mainly-junk/) when you’re reduced to shopping at “Artillery And Such”. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1093 "2023-05-13T18:07:42Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Russian command has very publicly announced, quite some time ago that they are perfectly willing to give up ground. Yeah, I think someone ought to report you to your handler, Komrad. The proper term is “goodwill gesture”. When they [left Kyiv](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/goodwill-gestures-and-de-nazification-decoding-putins-ukraine-war-lexicon/) it was a goodwill gesture. When they abandoned [Snake Island](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3583413-goodwill-gesture-how-russia-invents-justifications-for-its-losses-and-how-mobilization-can-change-things.html) it was a goodwill gesture. When they retreated back across the Donetsk abandoning [Kherson](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/another-russian-goodwill-gesture-signs-101000662.html) it was a goodwill gesture. They certainly weren’t retreating from land they could no longer hold; the whole of the operations from the start had been exercises in performative dance which the Nazis in Kyiv couldn’t see for what it was, a gesture of Russian goodwill! You’re also giving away the game with absurd claims of Russia willingly giving up ground only to use artillery to take back their positions. There’s a rather noticeable absence of Russian soldiers reclaiming all that ground they gave back in all these goodwill gestures. And let’s not even talk about Kharkiv, Russia won the retreat there Komrad! > ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1094 "2023-05-14T05:52:22Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Oh, and the Russians haven’t been taking back any ground they’ve lost, because they can’t. They’ve been too busy wasting time, money, resources and people trying to take Bakhmut. And they’ve been too busy shooting their own troops that are running away from the Ukraine advance. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1095 "2023-05-14T06:21:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And they’ve been too busy shooting their own troops that are running away from the Ukraine advance. That’s a huge improvement over smashing their heads with sledgehammers. (Though admittedly, you **do** save ammo that way.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1096 "2023-05-14T09:51:25Z")
Yo, Kompromat! Here’s a roundup of real news headlines related to the war your hero launched to stoke his own ego. [Ukraine’s Advances Near Bakhmut Expose Rifts in Russian Forces](https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-advances-near-bakhmut-expose-140944682.html) [Wagner boss Prigozhin is going off the rails in Ukraine, and Putin may not have much choice but to let him, war expert says](https://www.yahoo.com/news/wagner-boss-prigozhin-going-off-103000757.html) [Drunk Wagnerites beat and robbed businessman in Volgograd, Russia](https://www.yahoo.com/news/drunk-wagnerites-beat-robbed-businessman-104319843.html) [Zelenskyy: Once we are by administrative border of Crimea, Putin’s support in Russia will decrease](https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelenskyy-once-administrative-border-crimea-193851226.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1097 "2023-05-14T14:14:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > And let’s not even talk about Kharkiv, Russia won the retreat there Komrad! I think the preferred term from the Russian standpoint is “advancing in a different direction”. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1098 "2023-05-14T18:30:33Z")
I don’t think there are any serious rifts in Russian forces other than Prigozhin. Depending on what day it is. The Wagners are an important force, especially in urban warfare. But they do not operate in isolation. The successful attacks on the Russian flanks at Bakhmut is great. It eases pressure on the supply routes. But the Russians can still bring terrible fire amounts on those routes. Less accurate though. It does not lessen what force the Russians and Wagners can bring to bare in Bakhmut. I feel the Ukraine forces there will still be pushed out soon. But may now have less fire to go through in retreat. More support to cover it. Prigozhin is going ever further off the rails. Flip flopping day to day. He is not a military person. No rank, no specific command position. He has ingrained himself with his troops, but they may also be wondering what is going on in his mind. When your force depends on a wide array of support from the regular military, it is best to not piss them off too much. If the Wagner forces are rotated out and not needed for a specific purpose. I think Prigoszhin will then be forced to step back from such direct influence in the force. Or something more dark. Drunk soldiers doing bad things? How unusual. If Ukraine can get to the Crimean border in any amount of force. It would shake up things. Obvious mistakes would have been made. No idea what political and upper echelon military shifts might happen. But there would be a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1099 "2023-05-14T19:22:33Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I don’t think I’m a gonna stop you there. > He has ingrained himself with his troops, You mean “ingratiated”, Komrade. Please to be learning bettering your English in future. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1100 "2023-05-14T20:33:04Z")
As he is not a military officer. He chose to ingrain himself by other means. _adjective_ adjective: **ingrained** ; adjective: **engrained** 1. 1. (of a habit, belief, or attitude) firmly fixed or established; difficult to change. “his deeply ingrained Catholic convictions” - 1. (of dirt or a stain) deeply embedded and thus difficult to remove. “the ingrained dirt on the flaking paintwork” He has used his constant noise to make it seem he is in total command of the Wagner. I agree that this also has ingratiated him to the troops. But at some point his erratic ranting may cause them to lose faith in him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166.md?page=56)