# In defence of Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166 "2022-08-06T00:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1121 "2023-05-30T20:37:11Z")
Russia’s ‘legal’ system is nothing if not swift, ‘investigation’ started on viral faked video footage making the rounds in Russian social media on Friday, arrest warrant issued by Russian Interior Ministry on Monday. > **[Lindsey Graham: Russia issues arrest warrant for top Republican](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65749077)** > > An edited video appears to show the US senator celebrating Russian troops' deaths. Messed up world when I find myself agreeing with Lindsey Graham of all people about the ICC: > “Finally, here’s an offer to my Russian ‘friends’ who want to arrest and try me for calling out the Putin regime as being war criminals: I will submit to jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court if you do,” he added. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1122 "2023-06-05T01:39:48Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Wagner will rotate out. Other forces, maybe Chechen will replace them. Yeah, about that and the joys of having multiple armed forces being run by warlords who are hostile towards each other and the government’s own army which is hostile towards them in turn as opposed to the governement having the monopoly on violence the way the rest of the world works. This is the latest from Prigozhin’s PR channels; much of the leadership of Wagner were in Russian special forces during the 1999-2000 conflict: > **[Denys Davydov](https://t.me/pilotblog/4447)** > > PMC "Wagner" threaten the Kadyrovites to repeat the Chechen war and destroy everyone. > > In 1999, the battles for Grozny began, and in 2000 the Russian army wiped it off the face of the Earth and occupied it. “We can repeat Grozny 2000”, these are the... Prigozhin and Kadyrov have both been making noises about unilaterally sending forces to the Belgorod area since the regular Russian military hasn’t been doing such a hot job stopping the Freedom of Russia Legion from crossing the border and driving the Russian military and border forces out of Russian towns and villages. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1123 "2023-06-05T09:08:56Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Prigozhin and Kadyrov have both been making noises about unilaterally sending forces to the Belgorod area since the regular Russian military hasn’t been doing such a hot job stopping the Freedom of Russia Legion from crossing the border and driving the Russian military and border forces out of Russian towns and villages. no. stop. don’t do that. it would be bad. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1124 "2023-06-07T13:32:29Z")
Russian troops swept away by flood waters: > **[June 7, 2023 - Russia-Ukraine news](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-06-07-23/index.html)** > > Evacuations continue in Ukrainian-controlled areas of the southern Kherson region as the area reels from flooding brought by the collapse of a major dam Tuesday amid fears of an ecological catastrophe. > [@](#): > > The Russian units in harm’s way may not have been warned, possibly to maintain the element of surprise, Pidlisnyi said. The grand strategy continues. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1125 "2023-06-09T00:53:22Z")
Sure, now all they need is to stop water from cooling off nuclear plant parts. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1126 "2023-06-09T05:09:02Z")
I am leaning to Ukraine having done it. But only slightly. I do not see a great tactical advantage for either side to do it really. But maybe somebody has a plan that this will move forward? I only suspect Ukraine a bit more than Russia due to geography. The left side of the river downstream was obviously going to get flooded more. Russians were more on that side of the river. So they got swamped more. But not so much as to make a great advantage there. Lowering of the water levels along the river may ease a water crossing? Fewer actual pontoon sections required. But a lot of some sort of mud crossing structure at each end. It causes some headaches for the nuke plant cooling pools. A disaster there would be some big media thing. But which side will it be pro/negative for? I think just an overall negative. Worse yet if one is pinned as causing it. Maybe further events will clarify Cui Bono. Over the last few days it seems Ukraine has launched the offensive. But I am still not sure if it is full scale. Definitely fairly large incursions. But can still maybe be seen as probing. Units in the rear have been moved forward. Some that have been prepared for the offensive. But it still seems to not be punching in a particular place in full force. Maybe Ukraine is seeing how Russian rear support is being brought to bare, and trying to spot a hole that might develop behind the lines. Russia is moving support here and there as Ukraine attacks. A weak spot may become apparent as units move. It seems Ukraine forces are not using good tactics/materiel when moving forward. Leading armor does not have mine clearing attachments. Did they not see the Russians make similar mistake? They are taking areas. But not having enough support in depth to hold them well. Again, these may be probing attacks, so they are not fully concerned with holding ground yet. This war is really showing how certain technologies are changing tactics. On the fly. But yet still showing how attrition and production are still major issues. Been quite while since near peer military forces have gone full out. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1127 "2023-06-09T05:29:18Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I am leaning to Ukraine having done it. Of course you are Komrad. > [@Kedikat](#): > > I do not see a great tactical advantage for either side to do it really. Yes, no tactical advantage for either side could possibly be evident in turning a difficult water crossing obstacle into an impossible water crossing obstacle for the near future, what with Russia being very firmly on the defensive both front wide in general and south of Kherson in particular, having been forced to flee the Western side of the river in November. By committing what is a by the [books war crime as per Geneva 1977](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/protocol-additional-geneva-conventions-12-august-1949-and-0#:~:text=Works%20or%20installations%20containing%20dangerous,losses%20among%20the%20civilian%20population). No wiggle room allowed for any military advantage gained from blowing the dam. > #### Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces > > Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. Get fucked. You truly are a disgusting piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1128 "2023-06-09T05:40:50Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I am leaning to Ukraine having done it. ![](https://media.tenor.com/aK9Q5vEfofsAAAAC/segundo-sol-novela.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1129 "2023-06-09T08:42:21Z")
Also, blowing up the dam is a strategic action, not a tactical one, you dipshit. (OK, arguably operational, but definitely not tactical). ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1130 "2023-06-09T12:23:12Z")
Peter Zeihan explains quite well why this could not have been Ukraine: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XlrUkIRCSWI/maxresdefault.jpg "Of Dams and Damn Trolls: A Reflection by Peter Zeihan") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlrUkIRCSWI) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1131 "2023-06-09T14:19:23Z")
> **[Evidence grows of explosion at collapsed Ukraine dam](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-security-service-says-it-intercepted-call-proving-russia-destroyed-2023-06-09/)** > > Evidence was growing on Friday that there was an explosion at the Kakhovka dam in southern Ukraine around the time it collapsed, according to Ukrainian and U.S. intelligence reports and seismic data from Norway. > “They (the Ukrainians) didn’t strike it. That was our sabotage group,” said one of the men on the recording, described by the SBU as a Russian soldier. “They wanted to, like, scare (people) with that dam.” > > “It didn’t go according to plan, and (they did) more than what they planned for.” ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1132 "2023-06-09T17:27:39Z")
Can you really trust Reuters? Comrade Kedi would kindly ask you to check both sides for a well informed opinion. Who does TASS say attacked the dam? /s ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1133 "2023-06-09T17:38:06Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Can you really trust Reuters? I trust Reuters, though they’re just saying what Ukraine claims. I don’t 100% trust the intelligence operation of any country in a war discussing the negative actions of the enemy, just because it’s literally their job to spread misinformation that will hurt the enemy. I’m inclined to believe them in this case though, especially if they claim to have evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1134 "2023-06-10T04:57:29Z")
I find Reuters to be pretty good. I like that they have a corrections page as well. But as noted. Any news organization can publish faulty information that they felt was correct at the time. Everything is fallible. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1135 "2023-06-10T05:32:58Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I am leaning to Ukraine having done it. Ukraine doesn’t have the capability to have done it. You don’t blow up a dam with the 90kg warhead of a GMLRS from HIMARS, or even the 500kg warhead of a Storm Shadow. The WWII dambusters raids used 3400kg bombs. And you can’t make up the mass of explosives by using a bunch of artillery shells, because it doesn’t help to have surface detonations. The dam was blown up using demolition explosives. The Ukrainians didn’t have sufficient control over the area to plant such explosives. The Russians did. Also, the Ukrainians gain nothing from blowing the dam, at the cost of killing thousands of civilians and devastating the agricultural potential of much of southern Ukraine for decades to come. Finally, Ukrainians are scrambling to rescue civilians stranded by the flooding, while the Russians do nothing, even to assist those on the left bank. Instead, they’ve been shelling the Ukrainian civilian evacuation operations. This is the gravest war crime committed in Europe since WWII. To blithely assert that the Ukrainians might have committed it in the face of all the evidence that they did not and in fact could not have done so is utterly despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1136 "2023-06-10T08:12:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Also, the Ukrainians gain nothing from blowing the dam, Well…it probably did seriously damage Russia’s bank-side minefields, while not impeding Ukrainian river-crossing ability long enough to rebuild them properly. And if this war stalemated for years, Russian-held Crimea would be feeling a serious water-pinch. Frankly like many my first thought was that it was entirely accidental - a combination of high levels/water pressure and previous damage compromising the gates. It was just not an awesome idea for either side, though on balance a bigger short-term hit to Ukraine. But it certainly wasn’t Ukraine that blew it and it is increasingly certain Russia did. We’d know it by direct satellite evidence if Ukraine hit it externally and it’s exceptionally unlikely a Ukrainian demolition team could manage to infiltrate through Russian security unnoticed. There is mounting evidence there was an internal explosion at night and Russia held it…so…yeah, it was Russia. Of course it was. It couldn’t have really been Ukraine (they could have and [may have blown the Nord Stream line](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/politics/nord-stream-pipelines-us-intelligence/index.html), but that’s a very different bit of sabotage). It could have been an accidental failure, but it now looks like it almost certainly wasn’t - Russia sacrificed their own for transitory gain. Which is typical of Putin. Ukraine flooding their own settlements and creating a humanitarian crisis without trying to evacuate first would not be typical of Zelenskyy or the current Ukrainian government. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1137 "2023-06-10T09:46:55Z")
The dam was certainly blown up using carefully placed explosive charges. If the Ukrainians had managed to sneak into one of the most important structures in the country which was entirely under the control of the Russians, and spend a few hours wiring it up for demolition, that would actually be pretty embarrassing for Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1138 "2023-06-10T16:55:39Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > The dam was certainly blown up using carefully placed explosive charges. I’ve seen the [documentary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_10_from_Navarone_(film))! Have Mallory, Barnsby, and Miller been seen in the area? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1139 "2023-06-10T17:10:09Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > And if this war stalemated for years, Russian-held Crimea would be feeling a serious water-pinch. I have to question just how true this actually is. The figure that 85% of Crimea’s fresh water supply came from the canal is often floated around the media. However, Ukraine cut all water from the canal to Crimea from its ‘annexation’ in 2014 until 2022 when Russia physically took control of the canal and got the water flowing again. One might assume this would be devastating to the demographics of Crimea, but during this time from 2014-2022 the population of Crimea _increased_ between 10 and 20%; the only thing that suffered was Crimea’s agricultural output which is allegedly where over 70% of the water from the canal was used prior to 2014. Strange world where I can say with a straight face that my source is a sock puppet, but that’s the case: [Binkov’s Battlegrounds Who profits from Nova Kakhovka dam busting? - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFGgOvUf5nM), relevant part starts at ~ 9:35. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1140 "2023-06-10T17:33:03Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I have to question just how true this actually is Yeah, granted it’s hard to suss this one out. The wiki on the [North Crimean Canal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal), which is probably as well-sourced as anything, talks about how official Russian statistics claim agriculture massively rebounded with new investment and the building of a new reservoir. But it links to some Bloomberg and Al Jazeera reporting that talks about massive shrinkage in cultivated acreage, water rationing in Simferopol (dirty, brown water no less) and looming environmental catastrophe as they are pumping out groundwater aquifers to make up supply and soil salinization is expanding. The one AJ article talks about even local Russian officials saying desalination as the only long-term solution and I just don’t see Russia putting their scarce dollars and industrial capacity into that anytime soon with the war ongoing. I’m inclined to suspect the cynical take is more accurate than the rosy Russian one and that Crimea has been hurting more for water than the Russians have been letting on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166.md?page=58)