# In defence of Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166 "2022-08-06T00:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1141 "2023-06-11T02:09:01Z")
F it. This is lala land… ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1142 "2023-06-11T02:43:35Z")
sounds like putin’s reasoning on the 23rd of feb 2022 I am sure he learned a lot in the past 15 months 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1143 "2023-06-11T02:54:21Z")
Even the guests on Russian state TV wouldn’t go along with the cover story the show’s propagandist hosts were peddling. > ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1144 "2023-06-11T03:30:29Z")
I don’t get it, is “lala” Russian slang for “reality” or “facts”? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1145 "2023-06-11T03:48:31Z")
Interesting that the first thing former Deputy Foreign Minister Andrey Federov complains about is that a quote from the (Russian) ‘acting Governer’ of the Kherson region stating the obvious that “The destruction of the Kakhovka dam in the Kherson region gives a tactical military advantage to Russia’s Armed Forces” doesn’t work to Russia’s advantage since it contradicts the Russian party line that Ukraine must have done it. Wasn’t Komrad saying something about not being able to see a tactical advantage for either side? Pretty sad when the propaganda line is so bad that the people whose job it is to spread propaganda can’t swallow it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1146 "2023-06-11T03:52:53Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Pretty sad when the propaganda line is so bad that the people whose job it is to spread propaganda can’t swallow it. Not to worry, Comrade. Kedikat will be there for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1147 "2023-06-11T16:13:13Z")
“No tactical advantage for either side” Komrads. > **[Ukraine war: Why are Russian forces moving out of Kherson?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORyx7BOVOKg%2F)** > > Former British Army intelligence and security officer Philip Ingram discusses how the flooding of the Dnipro River is affecting the military strategies of bo... Before the title of the video makes anyone who isn’t a Russia bot happy, the reason is because they can now that they don’t have to defend anything downstream from the Kakhovka dam. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1148 "2023-06-23T23:46:46Z")
Now is the time for all good Russian trolls to come to the defense of the Motherland,[in peril from the counter-revolution!](https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-shoots-down-russian-cruise-missile-barrage-9d9da03a?mod=hp_lead_pos1) “Russian authorities stepped up security in Moscow and issued an arrest warrant for Yevgeny Prigozhin, the [owner of the Wagner paramilitary group](https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagner-chiefs-feud-with-russian-military-cracks-putins-image-of-control-488ac37?mod=article_inline), on charges of mutiny after he called on his troops to oust the country’s military leadership.” “Prigozhin, a one-time confidant of President [Vladimir Putin](https://www.wsj.com/topics/person/vladimir-putin), called for retaliation after claiming that the Russian military Friday killed “an enormous amount” of his troops in Friday’s strikes on Wagner camps. The military denied these strikes had occurred, and there was no independent evidence to back up his claim.” “As Russian soldiers in armored personnel carriers secured key installations in Moscow, leading Russian military commanders who had worked with Wagner urged the group’s fighters to stop before it was too late. “The last thing we need is to unleash a real civil war inside the country. Come back to your senses,” urged Lt. Gen. Vladimir Alekseyev, the deputy chief of Russian military intelligence.” “While there were no reports of clashes, Prigozhin said that his forces will launch a “march for justice.” Early on Saturday morning, he said that his troops had already left eastern Ukraine and started entering the southern Russian city of Rostov, where he said young conscripts offered no resistance. There was no immediate independent confirmation.” Such reports of cracks in the facade of ~~Soviet~~ Russian solidarity must surely be the work of Ukrainian provocateurs. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1149 "2023-06-24T04:44:32Z")
Some footage of what are alleged to be Wagner forces on the move on the road, and Wagner tanks and other armored vehicles surrounding the Ministry of Defense building in Rostov. > **[Wagner Uprising! Wagner Forces Enter Rostov, Russia – Surround the Ministry...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uecGBt4JjJY%2F)** > > Breaking news that Wagner is staging a small uprising against Russia, sending troops into Rostov after accusing Russia of attacking one of its camps.Support ... Buried under the lead of today, but there was talk yesterday in Washington DC on the issue of providing cluster munitions to Ukraine. > **[Cluster munitions would be useful for Ukraine, Pentagon says](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/cluster-munitions-would-be-useful-ukraine-pentagon-says-2023-06-22/)** > > The United States military believes that cluster munitions would be useful for Ukraine in pushing back against Russian forces, a senior Pentagon official said on Thursday, but they had not been approved for Kyiv yet because of congressional... Members of Congress sent a letter to Biden [back on March 21st urging Biden to send DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions) to Ukraine](https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/press-release/mccaul-rogers-risch-wicker-urge-biden-to-send-dpicm-to-ukraine/). Looks like the estimates Perun made on the amount of 155mm DPICM the US still has lying round all those months ago was pretty close to the mark. > Providing DPICM will allow Ukraine to compensate for Russia’s quantitative advantage in both personnel and artillery rounds, and will allow the Ukrainian Armed Forces to concentrate their use of unitary warheads against higher-value Russian targets. The operational benefits of DPICM include: > > Alleviating pressure on U.S. and allied munitions supplies. The United States has nearly three million of these rounds in its inventory – much of it located on U.S. and allied bases in Europe. And while digging around on this, I found out Putin’s good pals in Turkey have been sending 155mm DPICM rounds to Ukraine since late last year. > **[Turkey Is Sending Cold War-Era Cluster Bombs to Ukraine](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/10/turkey-cold-war-cluster-bombs-ukraine/)** > > The artillery-fired cluster munitions could be lethal to Russian troops—and Ukrainian civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1150 "2023-06-24T05:32:34Z")
It sounds like Ukraine’s best ally against Russia right now is Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1151 "2023-06-24T05:36:04Z")
\< Yakov Smirnoff \> In Russia, army attacks you! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1152 "2023-06-24T07:00:09Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > there was talk yesterday in Washington DC on the issue of providing cluster munitions to Ukraine. They could probably find a good use for old US stockpiles of mustard gas, too, why not provide those? The cilvilized world has banned cluster munitions for very good reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1153 "2023-06-24T07:10:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The cilvilized world has banned cluster munitions for very good reasons. I’m not good with them either due to the high risk of civilian casualties, more so than other weapons of war. I agree with you that they’re bad for the same reason that chemical weapons are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1154 "2023-06-24T07:18:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They could probably find a good use for old US stockpiles of mustard gas, too, why not provide those? Because every nation in question has signed the [chemical weapons convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention)? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The cilvilized world has banned cluster munitions for very good reasons. Russia, Ukraine, the US and Turkey are all not signatories to the [Convention on Cluster Munitions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions). The US has not signed it but has chosen to abide by and hasn’t used cluster munitions since 2004. Russia has indisputably been using cluster munitions since the start of the war. Ukraine has been requesting US cluster munitions since the beginning of the conflict, concerns that doing so would upset other NATO nations are why the US hasn’t supplied them. The good reason for banning the use of cluster munitions is essentially the same as that for banning land mines; they are a problem to clean up after the war is over, even a small dud rate becomes exponentially more problematic due to the sheer number of submunitions compared to unitary warheads duding. Regardless, Ukraine considers them to be worth the cleanup risks and to risk repeating myself, has been asking for them since the beginning of the war since the Russians have been using cluster munitions on them since the start of the war. An awful lot of the world seems to be uncivilized by your words too by the way. [File:Cluster Munitions Convention.svg - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cluster_Munitions_Convention.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1155 "2023-06-24T07:28:50Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The US has not signed it but has chosen to abide by and hasn’t used cluster munitions since 2004. It’s nice that they haven’t used them, but it would be better if they joined most of the world and signed it. Because the thing is, they only agreed to hold off on using them until they figured out a way to make them safer. But they’ve been unable to do so, and the Pentagon decided to “allow commanders to authorize the use of the weapons when they deem it necessary”. > **[US putting off planned ban on its use of cluster bombs](https://apnews.com/general-news-united-states-government-92ca83c2c09f4d5ea6b229a9ae27eb90)** > > The Pentagon is putting off indefinitely a planned 2019 ban on using certain cluster bombs, which release explosive sub-munitions, or bomblets. In other words, the US military has no intention to stop using them. They just want to make them better. But they’ll use the unsafe weapons that have a huge and long-term risk to civilian safety if they feel it’s needed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1156 "2023-06-24T07:34:33Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Because every nation in question has signed the [chemical weapons convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention)? Aah, so it’s a _Lawful_ Evil world you’d prefer? > [@Dissonance](#): > > Russia, Ukraine, the US and Turkey are all not signatories to the [Convention on Cluster Munitions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions). Yes, I _said_ the _ **civilized** _ world. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Russia has indisputably been using cluster munitions since the start of the war. And they also use torture, kidnap of children and rape as weapons of war. Should we assist Ukraine with doing that, too? > [@Dissonance](#): > > concerns that doing so would upset other NATO nations are why the US hasn’t supplied them. Yeah, I’ll note that you seem to acknowledge that “because they’re fucking inhumane” wouldn’t be a concern for the US, just the look of the thing. Like I said, _civilized_ nations… > [@Dissonance](#): > > The good reason for banning the use of cluster munitions is essentially the same as that for banning land mines Yes, those are _also_ [banned](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty#/media/File:Ottawa_Treaty_members.svg) by civilized nations (even more so than cluster munitions - civilization is apparently a continuum. ) There’s more than that one (very) good reason. They are also indiscriminate killers with a wide spread _when used_, especially near heavily populated areas. > [@Dissonance](#): > > An awful lot of the world seems to be uncivilized by your words too by the way. Well, yes. I can’t believe you couldn’t just say “well, I agree that would be terrible” and leave it at that. Instead, you seem to be _defending_ the US lack of a civilized stance on dealing indiscriminate death in the form of munitions that still kill dozens of people every year - in areas where their conflicts stopped up to 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1157 "2023-06-24T20:13:36Z")
Wow. Prigozhin seems to have actually believed his own rants. That is some weird monkey wrench tossed into the gears. So many options as to why, what it will cause, how it will resolve. Very interesting. At this point I am on the fence as to whether he is working for the Ukrainian/West side or just his own power play. Maybe a bit of both? Using the other side for his own gains, thinking he can walk that tightrope going forward? Does he have some people in power positions in the Russian hierarchy on board? I don’t think so. All that whining about not enough ammo and other supplies. Did he actually stockpile some actual excess that he then got, to stage this? Again I think not. It would have been a complex maneuver. But maybe possible. How many of the higher level Wagner command are on board with this? Most are ex Russian military professionals. I think he will have only a small percentage on side. But maybe a lot of the dumb rank and file think he is really the leader of Wagner. He spent a great deal of time in the field to ingrain this idea. It was obvious that Wagner was constantly, heavily supported by Russian regular forces in it’s operations. Maybe Prigozhin really believed they were doing it all on their own? That shows he is enough of an idiot to believe he can pull this off. He will be stomped down. I suspect a large majority of Wagner forces will not go along with this. But a certain amount of damage is already done. Western press will run wild with it. Western government support will be bolstered by the appearance of possible regime change. Governments that support or are neutral towards this on Russia side will have doubts now. I am surprised how far Russia let him go with his rants. But they were not actions. Now the line is definitely crossed. Clobbering time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1158 "2023-06-24T20:29:57Z")
You’re about 18 - 24 hours behind the news on this topic. Try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1159 "2023-06-24T20:58:34Z")
Oh my goodness I did not rush to this place with my first thoughts instantly? I am so sorry I made you wait! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-russia/969166/1160 "2023-06-24T21:00:46Z")
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