# In defence of wokeness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065 "2020-10-02T20:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/1 "2020-10-02T20:39:20Z")
As one of the people who’s been complaining a lot about ‘woke’ stuff recently, I think this article is well worth reading: > **[In defence of wokeness](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-wokeness/)** > > We have been reading an awful lot about ‘wokeness’ recently. Nobody, I notice, seems to be much in favour of it. In fact, the sharpest pens of the right seem to stab at more or less nothing else these days. Stab, stab, stab, they go. Many incisions... ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/2 "2020-10-02T21:28:31Z")
Such a tinny word! ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/4 "2020-10-03T00:03:44Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Such a tinny word! Woke? Sounds pretty woody to me. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/5 "2020-10-03T03:22:30Z")
Woke is like PC or SJW. It is a RW thing that was invented for them to have something to complain. Non-RWers use that term very rarely. Except, of course, for the registered, card-carrying members of Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/6 "2020-10-03T03:28:21Z")
I’m sure that most “woke” people have good intentions. But as someone who came from a religious fundamentalist background, a lot of ‘wokeness’ makes me uncomfortable for the same reasons David French pointed out in one of his articles: [“America is in the Grips of a Fundamentalist Revival.”](https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/america-is-in-the-grips-of-a-fundamentalist) A lot of wokeness bears uncanny similarity to some religious cults; namely, the belief that there are inherent sins that need to be atoned for, acknowledged, and constantly repented for and self-examined for 24/7 (i.e., white privilege, ingrained sexism or racism, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/7 "2020-10-03T06:45:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It is a RW thing that was invented for them to have something to complain. I agree with this. The word is generally used as an accusation. I can’t remember ever hearing anyone use it to describe themselves positively; only to describe other people negatively. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/8 "2020-10-03T06:56:48Z")
Hey, I agree with one of your posts finally! It’s 100% a slur by assholes to denigrate those fighting against assholism. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/9 "2020-10-03T07:05:14Z")
It may be used in that way now but that is certainly not where it came from. It was much loved by those on the left. [Where ‘woke’ came from and why marketers should think twice before jumping on the social activism bandwagon](https://theconversation.com/where-woke-came-from-and-why-marketers-should-think-twice-before-jumping-on-the-social-activism-bandwagon-122713) > A review of Google keywords shows the search for defining wokeness surged post 2015 with phrases such as “defining woke”, “woke meme”, “woke urban”, and “woke define” used. > > By September 2016, the phrase Black Lives Matter had been tweeted [more than 30 million times](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/black-tweets-matter-180960117/). The phrase “stay woke” gained strength and became a symbol of movement and activism. Staying woke became the umbrella purpose for movements like #blacklivesmatter (fighting racism), the #MeToo movement (fighting sexism, and sexual misconduct), and the #NoBanNoWall movement (fighting for immigrants and refugees). ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/10 "2020-10-03T17:31:46Z")
Denigrating being “woke” is tacitly admitting you prefer to navigate the world in a state of insensate somnambulism–basically displaying your Dunning-Kruger status like a baboon shows its ass. It’s not a good look. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/11 "2020-10-03T17:42:39Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Woke is like PC or SJW. It is a RW thing that was invented for them No. Wrong. It’s another thing Whiteness has stolen from Black people. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/12 "2020-10-03T17:57:32Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I can’t remember ever hearing anyone use it to describe themselves positively I have, mostly by the under-30 set. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/13 "2020-10-03T17:58:01Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Woke is like PC or SJW. It is a RW thing that was invented for them to have something to complain. Non-RWers use that term very rarely. Except, of course, for the registered, card-carrying members of Antifa. [Completely wrong.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/14 "2020-10-03T19:20:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m sure that most “woke” people have good intentions. But as someone who came from a religious fundamentalist background, a lot of ‘wokeness’ makes me uncomfortable for the same reasons David French pointed out in one of his articles: [“America is in the Grips of a Fundamentalist Revival.”](https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/america-is-in-the-grips-of-a-fundamentalist) > > A lot of wokeness bears uncanny similarity to some religious cults; namely, the belief that there are inherent sins that need to be atoned for, acknowledged, and constantly repented for and self-examined for 24/7 (i.e., white privilege, ingrained sexism or racism, etc.) Good article. I can see the religious aspect of wokeness, and Trump as charismatic evangelist leader helps explain his devoted following. And this: > It’s the fierce existential certainty of the fundamentalist that is so often the root of authoritarianism and illiberalism. I’m reminded of the old religious maxim, “Error has no rights.” That impulse lies at the heart of much of the Christian nationalist/integralist critique of classical liberalism. That impulse lies at the heart of the speech code and the metastasizing intolerance of woke capitalism. > > In a culture stripped of existential humility, the only valuable speech is the speech of those who speak existential truth. Dissent harms the body politic by introducing error. Thus “free speech”—as an independent liberty interest—cannot possibly be in the common good. The common good is advanced only by truth, and thus only truth has rights. > What is to be done with our nation’s toxic fundamentalist revival? Here’s a short but difficult list: First, reaffirm our nation’s commitments to pluralism. It is central to our classical liberal founding that error does, in fact, have rights. Second, construct and cultivate opposing institutions that model the values of humility, charity, and free inquiry that we seek to advance. Third, maintain a wide-open door to converts. And fourth, pray without ceasing for our nation and its people. > > As longtime readers know, I grew up in a church that had strong fundamentalist roots. I’ve seen many people leave fundamentalism and enter religious communities that were rich with the fruits of the spirit, including love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness. I have not, however, seen people battered, mocked, and berated out of fundamentalism. Indeed, anger and intolerance directed at the angry and intolerant often only serve to deepen the fundamentalist’s sense of conviction and purpose. I wonder how many posters here believe that error has rights? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/15 "2020-10-03T20:38:54Z")
“Woke” as a term is basically serving the same function for the left as “wake up sheeple” or “take the red pill” do for their respective groups. It’s a form of words meant to evoke the concept that our group are the ones that really know what’s going on, and anyone that opposes us is simply not using their brains, and are unaware of reality. Making no comment about which of these groups have ideas that I actually agree with, which is a separate matter. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/16 "2020-10-03T23:24:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I wonder how many posters here believe that error has rights? First Amendment fanatic here. Yes, freedom of speech _must_ include rotten, nasty, dirty, hateful, evil, and shitten speech. No way around it, because the power to silence “bad” speech implies the power to determine what speech is “bad.” ETA: if this isn’t what you meant, oops, my bad. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/17 "2020-10-04T10:40:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > First Amendment fanatic here. Yes, freedom of speech _must_ include rotten, nasty, dirty, hateful, evil, and shitten speech. No way around it, because the power to silence “bad” speech implies the power to determine what speech is “bad.” > > ETA: if this isn’t what you meant, oops, my bad. I think that’s part of it, and a big part. Does your free speech fanaticism extend to debating the badwrong opinions, or is it better to use any means short of the law to silence them? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/18 "2020-10-04T17:02:29Z")
My free speech fanaticism heavily favors using speech to rebut speech. Morris Dees was once talking about a case where a college newspaper had censored an essay questioning whether the Nazi Holocaust had actually happened. He said, no, don’t censor it. Publish it. And then everyone who knows the truth should write in a response, explaining what had really happened, and why the original essay is ignorant to the point of stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/19 "2020-10-05T22:01:55Z")
I dislike the term “woke” because as it’s usually used it sounds like bad grammar. I’m mildly curious what the OP got out of the article. Did being unawakened sound like a better thing before reading it? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/20 "2020-10-05T22:24:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m mildly curious what the OP got out of the article. Did being unawakened sound like a better thing before reading it? That the original concept is actually a good one, and it’s a reminder to look at and understand new ideas properly, even if they sound silly, rather than dismissing them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/21 "2020-10-05T22:26:51Z")
So the presumption is that the modern concept has been completely replaced by “be liberal” and that therefore it’s not a good one? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065.md?page=2)