# In defence of wokeness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065 "2020-10-02T20:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/182 "2020-10-08T18:32:47Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I’m pretty sure the cultural revolution actually happened, it is not a hypothetical. Wait, oh shit, you mean that in another nation after a bloody revolution it happened? I mean, why aren’t we talking about the Reign of Terror? The hypothetical is **octopus’s** claim that, for example, the woman in the funny skirt wants to murder Idaho babies, or that I’d be super freaked out if her skirt had General Lee or some other traitor on it. He doesn’t have actual facts on his side, so instead he makes up imaginary scenarios and casts them with his adversaries; and when in his imagination his adversaries do terrible things, he uses their terrible imaginary actions to imagine victory against them in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/183 "2020-10-08T18:45:37Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Pretty much any ideology taken to an extreme leads to hell on earth. Men and women of good faith should stand against extremism whether from the right or the left. Instead we see this attitude that the best way of fighting extreme right ideology is with extreme left ideology. I agree. The article @Velocity linked to said the same thing: > In other words, the “fight fire with fire” logic of the competing fundamentalist strains of the American secular revival is precisely wrong. One flame doesn’t eradicate (or even permanently defeat) the other. They both feed each other, until the conflagration spirals out of control. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Holy shit. That is nothing like the diversity training I get. We sometimes get maybe one speaker who thinks that white man is the devil and once we get that speaker out of the way, we talk about things like mentoring, inappropriate speech/behavior from clients, etc. No fair. You get actual speakers? All the training I’ve ever done has been tedious online videos with multiple choice questions. What do you think of Trump’s ban? I’ve been reading what the executive order says (it does NOT read like Trump wrote it), and it wouldn’t cover all diversity training. Would you say it bans the sort you’ve had or not? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/184 "2020-10-08T19:38:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The hypothetical is **octopus’s** claim that, for example, the woman in the funny skirt wants to murder Idaho babies, or that I’d be super freaked out if her skirt had General Lee or some other traitor on it. He doesn’t have actual facts on his side, so instead he makes up imaginary scenarios and casts them with his adversaries; and when in his imagination his adversaries do terrible things, he uses their terrible imaginary actions to imagine victory against them in the real world. Pffft, who cares if some womant “wants” to murder babies in Idaho. I “want” to engage in a torrid extramarital affair with Jessica Alba, but I am not going to act on it because she is a married woman and it wouldn’t be fair to her husband Cash Warren (or the cops who would have to come and arrest me for stalking). The conversation had moved on (I thought) from the specific to the general. Extreme leftism can be dangerous and there are sufficient historical precedents to confirm this. Just as there are sufficient evidence to convince any reasonable person that extreme right wing ideology is also dangerous. > [@DemonTree](#): > > No fair. You get actual speakers? All the training I’ve ever done has been tedious online videos with multiple choice questions. Well it’s all online now for us too. But it used to be live training with free lunch. > [@DemonTree](#): > > What do you think of Trump’s ban? I’ve been reading what the executive order says (it does NOT read like Trump wrote it), and it wouldn’t cover all diversity training. Would you say it bans the sort you’ve had or not? I don’t know how trump enforces that in the private contractor setting. But yes, we sometimes have a speaker that would be prohibited by the ban. But the more practical elements of diversity training would be permitted. Some of it might be on the line. The one about how to deal with racism/sexism from clients basically assumes that all our clients are racist sexist pigs. In 25 years of practice, I think I may have had this come up a handful of times but there was a lot of stuff about systemic racism/sexism and how client behavior can drive staffing decisions that harm women and minorities. It sort of assumed a level of racism and sexism that you don’t really see in professional environments these days. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/185 "2020-10-08T19:46:43Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Pffft, who cares if some womant “wants” to murder babies in Idaho. Octopus. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/186 "2020-10-08T20:02:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Octopus. Like I said, I thought we have moved from the specific to the general and Octopus was making a more general comment using the woman with the baby blood lust as a rhetorical device. But maybe Octopus also has a baby in Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/187 "2020-10-08T20:32:32Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I’m pretty sure the cultural revolution actually happened What, pray tell, would be the lifespan of someone wandering around Cultural Revolution China in a skirt that had both Mao and Stalin printed on it? The skirt has exactly zip to do with the ideology of the people represented on it, any more than I’m a racist for having H.P. Lovecraft’s ugly mug on a t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/188 "2020-10-08T21:04:54Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Like I said, I thought we have moved from the specific to the general and Octopus was making a more general comment using the woman with the baby blood lust as a rhetorical device. But maybe Octopus also has a baby in Idaho. That’s amazing that you thought that’s how the conversation had moved. But it’s not my job to teach you how conversations work, so I’ll let that go. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/189 "2020-10-08T21:13:41Z")
We should be talking about the Reign of Terror. That’s a very good example as to why mob rule and the pursuit of ideological purity should be feared and not encouraged. Yet what we are seeing spread are those illiberal forces. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/190 "2020-10-08T21:15:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > We should be talking about the Reign of Terror. That’s a very good parallel to why mob rule and the pursuit of ideological purity should be feared and not encouraged. Yet what we are seeing spread are those illiberal forces. So join us and help fight Trump and his violent thugs like the Proud Boys. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/191 "2020-10-08T21:20:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > We should be talking about the Reign of Terror. WTH is “the Reign of Terror”? Is it the Michigan Militias that plotted to kidnap the governor of their state? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/192 "2020-10-08T22:06:37Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The one about how to deal with racism/sexism from clients basically assumes that all our clients are racist sexist pigs. In 25 years of practice, I think I may have had this come up a handful of times but there was a lot of stuff about systemic racism/sexism and how client behavior can drive staffing decisions that harm women and minorities. It sort of assumed a level of racism and sexism that you don’t really see in professional environments these days. Maybe it’s out of date. Or maybe, well, it’s in their interest to make the problem look worse than it is, to ensure their continued employment. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/193 "2020-10-08T23:22:10Z")
I’m sure you’ve had a history class. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/194 "2020-10-09T02:14:20Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > For part of our training we had to brainstorm ways to integrate anti - racist values into our organization, and one of the suggestions was to make continued anti - racist work an ongoing part of performance evaluations. That would mean setting annual goals around dismantling racism and going through the regular disciplinary process if we fail to follow through on those goals. This would theoretically mean you could get fired for not being woke enough. Diversity, equity, and inclusion are hot topics in the HR world right now and my company certainly has some strategic goals with that in mind. But I’d be very concerned if my executives wanted to make continued anti-racist work a part of someone’s evaluation. Did they discuss what specific metric they’d use to determine whether or not someone achieved their goal? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/195 "2020-10-09T02:44:51Z")
No, this was just a brainstorming session among staff. Whether or not leadership decides to use the idea remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/196 "2020-10-09T03:48:12Z")
I think this is a good article. It points out that those who make fun of it don’t know what they are talking about while many of those on the left who use the term are equally “unwoke” about those who laugh at the term. In this, truth. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/197 "2020-10-09T12:40:42Z")
Maybe I’m too harsh on **octopus** and his theories about the violence of the hard left. For the first time, this morning, my life is touched by the violence associated with the Black Lives Matter movement. Some students at my wife’s workplace painted a BLM mural on campus. Someone has called in a terrorist threat to the campus in response to the painting, and the campus is on lockdown. (My wife is working from home today, so she’s safe). But yes: the problem is 100% those hard leftists. Let’s imagine what the mural painters would do if they were secretly Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/198 "2020-10-09T13:54:50Z")
Oh, and apparently anti-abortion protestors have been standing outside the board of elections in my liberal town and yelling with a megaphone at voters going to turn in their ballots. Would you like to explain how it’s really the evil leftists responsible for these acts? Would you like to tell me that these people would literally like to torture their adversaries to death? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/199 "2020-10-09T15:55:16Z")
And now my school is in lockdown, because of right wing terrorist threats against college students who dared paint a mural. The problem isn’t pop art skirts. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/200 "2020-10-09T17:37:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem isn’t pop art skirts. You don’t know that. The people who painted the BLM mural were probably wearing “[Black Panther Party](https://www.etsy.com/listing/862502477/black-panther-shirt-oakland-california?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=black+panthers+shirt&ref=sr_gallery-1-8&col=1)” tees. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/201 "2020-10-09T17:51:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You don’t know that. The people who painted the BLM mural were probably wearing “[Black Panther Party](https://www.etsy.com/listing/862502477/black-panther-shirt-oakland-california?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=black+panthers+shirt&ref=sr_gallery-1-8&col=1)” tees. I’m working with my fourth graders on a novel study of _One Crazy Summer_, an amazing and award-winning children’s book about the Oakland 1968 Black Panthers. It takes some liberties with timeline (the kids are involved in the free breakfast program), but otherwise is pretty accurate. Likely I’m a terrible propagandist indoctrinating our children, from the perspective of the far right. But honestly, I’m so angry about this right now, it’s hard for me to joke. Terrorists are shutting down our schools. Terrorists were planning to kidnap the governor of a state. A business consortium is looking to hire ex-special forces to scare “the antifas” away from the polls. And people keep suggesting that it’s the far left that’s creating problems. It’s beyond infuriating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065.md?page=11)