# In defence of wokeness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065 "2020-10-02T20:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/82 "2020-10-06T20:21:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > in an environment where, if the company doesn’t “cancel” the miscreant, the public is pretty likely to “cancel” the company. To be fair, @DemonTree also doesn’t think that the public should be allowed to “cancel” the company. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/83 "2020-10-06T20:22:51Z")
Do you want me to show you the recent headlines where Trump canceled diversity training for federal employees? the reasons that you cannot parse my paragraph is because you really don’t want to. As it actually points out your own behavior. On a board where we have spoken extensively about police reform, you throw out “defund the police” as a pejorative. That is the sort of thing that someone would do when they do not care about evidence based strategies, and are against the goals of them entirely. I could dig up examples from this board of people objecting to the very notion of AA, not just some implementation of it. I can show you over and over again those who refuse to accept that there should be any sort of assistance to marginalized demographics, that they should just be able to get over it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/84 "2020-10-06T20:26:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > To be fair, @DemonTree also doesn’t think that the public should be allowed to “cancel” the company. Hmm, I’m not certain of that. I know he wants bigots to be able to be bigot without consequences, but I’m not certain of his chosen mechanism for implementing this. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/85 "2020-10-06T20:26:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You are specifically talking about how you want people to be able to be racists and sexists without their employers being able to respond to these behaviors. You want their employers to be _forced_ to put up with this, in an environment where, if the company doesn’t “cancel” the miscreant, the public is pretty likely to “cancel” the company. > > That’s what you’re talking about, specifically. No, that is specifically not what I am talking about, specifically. But if you are just going to keep strawmanning and not engage seriously, this is pointless. > [@begbert2](#): > > (And I find the notion that people have been canceled _for_ liberal positions laughable. Unless you’re complaining about people being canceled from Fox news, maybe?) This, on the other hand, is interesting. Are conservatives more generous than liberals in allowing different opinions, or do they have too little social power to cancel people (at least outside of Fox News)? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/86 "2020-10-06T20:33:15Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > No, that is specifically not what I am talking about, specifically. But if you are just going to keep strawmanning and not engage seriously, this is pointless. You keep moving the goalposts all over the field, it is inevitable they pick up some straw on the way. What is it, exactly, that you want. What do you want from the public, what do you want from employers? And is there anything at all that you want from those who choose to speak in public, should they bear any responsibility for their words? > [@DemonTree](#): > > This, on the other hand, is interesting. Are conservatives more generous than liberals in allowing different opinions, or do they have too little social power to cancel people (at least outside of Fox News)? No, I wouldn’t say so. Not sure why you would think that. But, I disagree with @begbert2 here. If I were to put a Biden sign in my window, I’d lose 90% of my clients. People have been canceled for having liberal positions forever. It is a recent phenomena that conservative positions get criticized, and that is what is now causing all the uproar. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/87 "2020-10-06T20:34:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > No, that is specifically not what I am talking about, specifically. But if you are just going to keep strawmanning and not engage seriously, this is pointless. I’m talking about actual so-called cancel culture. I don’t know what fantasy you’re talking about. > [@DemonTree](#): > > This, on the other hand, is interesting. Are conservatives more generous than liberals in allowing different opinions, or do they have too little social power to cancel people (at least outside of Fox News)? Are you drawing an equivalence between how people who are racists can easily offend non-racists, and how likely it is for a racist to be driven to fury by a person _refraining_ from making racist comments? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/88 "2020-10-06T20:36:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, I disagree with @begbert2 here. If I were to put a Biden sign in my window, I’d lose 90% of my clients. People have been canceled for having liberal positions forever. It is a recent phenomena that conservative positions get criticized, and that is what is now causing all the uproar. Okay, you sort of have me here, though in my defense nobody calls it “canceling” when racists run people out of town on a rail. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/89 "2020-10-06T20:38:36Z")
True, they call it “upholding community/family/patriotic/religious values.” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/90 "2020-10-06T20:51:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you drawing an equivalence between how people who are racists can easily offend non-racists, and how likely it is for a racist to be driven to fury by a person _refraining_ from making racist comments? No, I was talking about the kind of opinions liberals hold that conservatives might object to: pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, supporting single payer healthcare, etc. But it sounds like you’ve changed your mind anyway. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/91 "2020-10-06T20:54:53Z")
Sure, changed my mind, that’s a good term for it. So let’s discuss the actual situation. Throughout the world, people have always been wary about speaking out with unpopular opinions. Unpopular opinions have always had consequences. This has always been the case and conservatives have long been cool with it, showing that they love cancel culture. And then society started shifting such that, in the states, those conservatives are no longer the popular opinion. Cancel culture is suddenly bad! ETA: Plus, conservatives are being wusses about this - you want to see some _real_ cancel culture? _McCarthyism_. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/92 "2020-10-06T21:19:44Z")
Okay, if you’re really willing to talk about the actual situation… long ago the church stifled certain opinions. More recently you had McCarthyism. China had the cultural revolution. Witch hunts are bad. Bad for individuals, bad for society - which needs new ideas in order to change and grow. It’s my impression that something similar is in progress today. And no, most of the victims are not conservatives, they are leftists or moderates who doesn’t have pure enough views. The article Spice\_Weasel linked is the sort of thing I am worried about. Now sure, you can disagree with what I am seeing, but please stop attributing ridiculous views to me. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/93 "2020-10-06T21:27:09Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And no, most of the victims are not conservatives, they are leftists or moderates who doesn’t have pure enough views. I don’t believe this, though there _have_ been a few cases where people who made some comment thirty years ago are being called to the carpet for it now. Personally, I don’t consider the two sides to be the same here. People who make abhorrent comments should be fired. People who support their fellow man shouldn’t be. Sure, it’s not equal, but we put criminals in jail and we don’t put innocent people in jail and that’s not equal either. I’m fine with that. The thing to be wary about here is that thanks to Twitter (burn it down!) the judgement is being made largely by the mob. Now, the mob is not always wrong - racists should, indeed, be held responsible for being human turds. So if enough people forget to check the dates on the offending tweet, the banhammer falls on somebody who is no longer offending. In a reasonable world you’d expect the businesses to the the calm heads in the situation, and say, “No, we are not firing him for something he said thirty years ago and is profusely apologising for.” However the free market is not nearly as effective at benefiting society as many think, and the invisible hand sometimes gets palsy and slaps down somebody it shouldn’t. Which, to be specific, are people who are not racists. Which doesn’t describe the majority of people being canceled. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/94 "2020-10-06T21:31:54Z")
Not really sure why you think I’m trying to get one over on you. It’s not like the idea that people with the best of intentions and who want good things for society are not capable of being zealots in their pursuits or that some of those means can’t also cause unintended harm in the process. And if everyone and everything is subject to criticism, why not them? And there is plenty of evidence of harms done in the interest of various laudable goals, in the past and now. We’re not talking specifics and I’m not offering specifics. But it’s disingenuous to handwave well established precedents of good ideas gone wrong as “evidence free insults”. Wokeness may be a new word but it’s far from being a new concept and it’s not above criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/95 "2020-10-06T21:32:10Z")
One issue with many people who support “wokeness” or “social justice” is that they tend to be thoroughly, absolutely, genuinely convinced that they are right. Not just logically right, but morally and ethically right. When people get locked into that sort of mindset, it’s almost impossible to dissuade them out of it. Because not only is it their adamant belief that they are right, but it’s their mission to convert others to their way of ‘rightness’ as well. That sort of mindset is akin to a 3-foot thick layer shell of Kevlar. Almost nothing can penetrate it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/96 "2020-10-06T21:34:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > One issue with many people who support “wokeness” or “social justice” is that they tend to be thoroughly, absolutely, genuinely convinced that they are right. Not just logically right, but morally and ethically right. I’m sure this is true, but why is this notable? This is an accurate description for “many people” from just about every single political stripe. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/97 "2020-10-06T21:39:32Z")
If anything, the “woke” people have more reason than most to believe their position is morally and ethically right, because the whole premise of the position is based _directly_ on morals and ethics. This is not really a premise that gun proponents and Trump supporters has so firm a hold on, even objectively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/98 "2020-10-06T21:55:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > No, I was talking about the kind of opinions liberals hold that conservatives might object to: Exactly, and where was all this furor about cancel culture when the President of the United States demanded that football players be fired for kneeling for the national anthem? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/99 "2020-10-06T22:01:19Z")
We were not talking about “wokeness” but rather, “wokism”, as in a religious or zealotry based movement. That is what is an evidence free insult. Sure, it’s not above criticism, nothing is. However, the only criticism I see is from people who are against the concept behind it, to be aware of how society and individuals affect eachother, and the harm they can do even without intent. > [@Velocity](#): > > One issue with many people who support “wokeness” or “social justice” is that they tend to be thoroughly, absolutely, genuinely convinced that they are right. Not just logically right, but morally and ethically right. I mean, it’s pretty hard to convince people to _be_ racist. Maybe even as hard as it is to convince people to not be racist. > [@Velocity](#): > > When people get locked into that sort of mindset, it’s almost impossible to dissuade them out of it. Because not only is it their adamant belief that they are right, but it’s their mission to convert others to their way of ‘rightness’ as well. That sort of mindset is akin to a 3-foot thick layer shell of Kevlar. Almost nothing can penetrate it. What exactly is it that you are trying to dissuade them from? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/100 "2020-10-06T22:50:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you want me to show you the recent headlines where Trump canceled diversity training for federal employees? No, that’s fine. But I would be interested if there is any evidence on the effectiveness of that type of diversity training. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > the reasons that you cannot parse my paragraph is because you really don’t want to. As it actually points out your own behavior. > > On a board where we have spoken extensively about police reform, you throw out “defund the police” as a pejorative. That is the sort of thing that someone would do when they do not care about evidence based strategies, and are against the goals of them entirely. No, I really couldn’t follow it. But if that’s what you meant then fine, delete ‘defund the police’ and substitute something you do believe lacks evidence. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I could dig up examples from this board of people objecting to the very notion of AA, not just some implementation of it. I can show you over and over again those who refuse to accept that there should be any sort of assistance to marginalized demographics, that they should just be able to get over it themselves. I think we’re arguing about the wrong thing, probably my fault this time, sorry. The point is whether there are people who object to eg AA, but **do** support other measures. Do you agree such people exist? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065/101 "2020-10-06T23:27:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We were not talking about “wokeness” but rather, “wokism”, as in a religious or zealotry based movement. > > That is what is an evidence free insult. I’m using wokeness/wokeism interchangeably here. But if you insist, I’ll accept wokeness to be a less zealoted form of wokeism. (I can’t even believe we’re having a this fucking conversation, tbh). As for evidence, I consider “abolish the police” and the concerted effort among some trans-activists to redefine the meaning of “woman” or introduce the “cis” prefix as part of daily speech to describe non-trans people to be wokeism. Especially when people uncritically support these efforts. I doubt very much that the latter group would consider their support of these issues anything other than wokeness. If these do not rise to your acceptable standard of evidence then I’m prepared to accept that nothing that doesn’t fit your world view is going to suffice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defence-of-wokeness/922065.md?page=6)