# In defense of Art **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 14, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617 "2014-11-14T13:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/1 "2014-11-14T13:08:43Z")
The other day I was linked to a YouTube video by a Spanish aspiring actor, movie director and video maker. I found it interesting and deserving of discussion. What prompted the author to make that video and give his opinion on Art and artists was a comment by somebody in a conversation about the recent decision by the Spanish government to make “art studies” the equivalent of a University degree. The comment in question: \*"Medical research increases life expectancy (in a measurable way). New engineering methods reduce costs, distances, times, etc. (in a measurable way). R+D increases GDP and employment rates (in a measurable way). A lunatic splashing a couple of lines on a canvas or a weirdo writing a pasodoble does not provide anything measurable or objective. The world will go on whether they provide that or not. We don’t need them."\* The video of Elio González in reply to this comment, in my opinion, is a thing of beauty. I think it deserves to be seen. I will link to the version with subtitles in English and the original version with only Spanish-language audio. The Spanish version has a few titles in the beginning where the comment mentioned above is shown. The English-subtitled version begins directly with Elio’s video. Version with subtitles in English: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/o20rM9VmKnY/maxresdefault.jpg "LOSERS") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o20rM9VmKnY) Original version with only Spanish-language audio: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6X08zzXWzag/maxresdefault.jpg "Muertos de hambre.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X08zzXWzag) Just my 2 eurocent! JoseB ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/2 "2014-11-14T14:04:23Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > \*"Medical research increases life expectancy (in a measurable way). New engineering methods reduce costs, distances, times, etc. (in a measurable way). R+D increases GDP and employment rates (in a measurable way). > > A lunatic splashing a couple of lines on a canvas or a weirdo writing a pasodoble does not provide anything measurable or objective. The world will go on whether they provide that or not. We don’t need them."\* Ah yes, nowadays everything has to be mesured. As if being able to put things in neat little graphs means that there’s nothing else that matters. Funny, how do you mesure what is perhaps the most significant thing that can be: the love you feel for other persons? Love cannot be mesured. So I guess we don’t need it. Same with art. It cannot be mesured so it’s useless. Yet humans have created since the dawn of time and continue to do so. We remember the names of thousands of writers, painters, musicians. The thing is art allows us to experience things we’d never have had a chance to experience otherwise. Want to know what it felt like to be a woman in 19th century England? Try reading **Brontë**. What sort of things did hunters see on a typical winter’s day in the 16th century? Take at look at the **Brueghel** painting. Art allows us to live different lives, it allows us to get a glimpse of what other people see, to feel a little bit of what they felt, to understand some of their thoughts. It connects us to the rest of mankind. By doing so, it allows us to live a fuller, richer life. It adds another dimension to our limited experience. That’s what art is about: connecting humans. That’s why it has remained and will remain central to our existence: we’re social creatures first and foremost. And that’s why we will go on remembering the great artists and their works while the names the creators of “useful stuff” will be lost. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/3 "2014-11-14T14:59:37Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Ah yes, nowadays everything has to be mesured. As if being able to put things in neat little graphs means that there’s nothing else that matters. > > Funny, how do you mesure what is perhaps the most significant thing that can be: the love you feel for other persons? Love cannot be mesured. So I guess we don’t need it. > > Same with art. It cannot be mesured so it’s useless. > > Yet humans have created since the dawn of time and continue to do so. We remember the names of thousands of writers, painters, musicians. > > The thing is art allows us to experience things we’d never have had a chance to experience otherwise. Want to know what it felt like to be a woman in 19th century England? Try reading **Brontë**. What sort of things did hunters see on a typical winter’s day in the 16th century? Take at look at the **Brueghel** painting. > > Art allows us to live different lives, it allows us to get a glimpse of what other people see, to feel a little bit of what they felt, to understand some of their thoughts. It connects us to the rest of mankind. By doing so, it allows us to live a fuller, richer life. It adds another dimension to our limited experience. > > That’s what art is about: connecting humans. That’s why it has remained and will remain central to our existence: we’re social creatures first and foremost. And that’s why we will go on remembering the great artists and their works while the names the creators of “useful stuff” will be lost. Please remind the rest of us, which of the thousands of artists contributed to landing an exploratory space craft on a comet? Art, without a doubt, has an important role to play in human lives. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the list of giants on whose shoulders humanity stands: Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Curie, Mendeleev, Darwin, Bohr, Einstein… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/4 "2014-11-14T15:20:40Z")
The best engineers are also artists in other fields. One of my personal heroes is Ildefonso Cerdà, the engineer who designed Barcelona’s Eixample as an area with wide streets, mixed uses blocks, parks all over (his original designs called for every single block to have its own park); he wanted “the Extension” to be easy to travel and figured that traffic would grow enormously, but he also wanted it to be comfortable, airy, beautiful. Antoni Gaudí was so far ahead of his time that he couldn’t run the calculations he needed, he had to use models - nowadays, one of the most advanced computational modeling teams in the world sits under the Sagrada Familia, can you imagine what Don Antoni would have been able to do if he’d had access to that math? And of course, a good engineer always takes ergonomics into account, which involves having a good understanding of the [morphology of his users](https://www.google.com/search?q=vitruvius&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&tbm=isch&imgil=NVbKsY60IpBSwM%253A%253BRKx_eJDs85hZoM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fulife.vpul.upenn.edu%25252Fcareerservices%25252Fblog%25252F2011%25252F03%25252F01%25252Fvitruvius-%25252525E2%2525252580%2525252593-firmitas-utilitas-venustas%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=NVbKsY60IpBSwM%253A%252CRKx_eJDs85hZoM%252C_&usg=__I6tPTY34u1gQWAuv5JJPiory_ao%3D&biw=1920&bih=974&ved=0CKgBEMo3&ei=-RxmVJrmF4afygOjh4GAAg#rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&tbm=isch&q=vitruvius+man+leonardo&imgdii=_). Tell me, **Quicksilver** , do you consider that one of the world’s best military engineers in history can be forgiven for spending a bit of his time doodling? I don’t know what are the current stats, but back when I (and the OP as well) was in college, the people most likely to have both college degrees and degrees in music were engineers. People who think that art is “useless” to human invention have no idea how an inventor’s mind works. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/5 "2014-11-14T15:37:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Tell me, **Quicksilver** , do you consider that one of the world’s best military engineers in history can be forgiven for spending a bit of his time doodling? > > I don’t know what are the current stats, but back when I (and the OP as well) was in college, the people most likely to have both college degrees and degrees in music were engineers. People who think that art is “useless” to human invention have no idea how an inventor’s mind works. I would encourage everyone to learn about, appreciate and even practice art, if they are so inclined. Makes one a more well rounded person, IMO. I was imply responding to the sentiment expressed by **Les Espaces Du Sommeil** : > [@](#): > > …And that’s why we will go on remembering the great artists and their works while the names the creators of “useful stuff” will be lost, it it can be helped. In all fairness, artists and scientists both contribute “usefull stuff” to humanity. Neither should be lost. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/6 "2014-11-14T15:40:40Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Please remind the rest of us, which of the thousands of artists contributed to landing an exploratory space craft on a comet? > > Art, without a doubt, has an important role to play in human lives. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the list of giants on whose shoulders humanity stands: Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Curie, Mendeleev, Darwin, Bohr, Einstein… ::grabs popcorn:: You really believe that, don’t you? To be clear: those folks matter as much as you assert. But to discount the world of art and its essential role in our societies, communities and individual lives seems…silly and short-sighted. It’s like praising our Conscious Mind, and proposing that we ignore or cut off our Subconscious Mind. You can’t. Both are essential parts of the system that benefits Mankind. Remember: Einstein played the violin and deeply loved creating and listening to music. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/7 "2014-11-14T15:48:50Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > ::grabs popcorn:: > > You really believe that, don’t you? > > To be clear: those folks matter as much as you assert. But to discount the world of art and its essential role in our societies, communities and individual lives seems…silly and short-sighted. It’s like praising our Conscious Mind, and proposing that we ignore or cut off our Subconscious Mind. You can’t. > > Both are essential parts of the system that benefits Mankind. > > Remember: Einstein played the violin and deeply loved creating and listening to music. Now what? I’m going to repeat myself just one more time and leave it to those who are so inclined to continue to parse what I said any way they want to hear it… BOTH art and science are parts of the human condition and I’m not the one arguing that some will be forgotten by history because the others are so much more emotionally appealing. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/8 "2014-11-14T16:01:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > BOTH art and science are parts of the human condition and I’m not the one arguing that some will be forgotten by history because the others are so much more emotionally appealing. That’s good, because nobody else in the thread was arguing it either. The scientists on your list were no more about creating “useful stuff” than are or were most artists. (Or are you going to claim that Archimedes’ greatest contribution to humanity was his screw, Newton’s, his reflecting telescope … ?) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/9 "2014-11-14T16:06:31Z")
Moved MPSIMS --\> Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/10 "2014-11-14T16:26:20Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > That’s good, because nobody else in the thread was arguing it either. Do tell… > [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > … > That’s what art is about: connecting humans. That’s why it has remained and will remain central to our existence: we’re social creatures first and foremost. And that’s why we will go on remembering the great artists and their works while the names the creators of “useful stuff” will be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/11 "2014-11-14T16:48:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Please remind the rest of us, which of the thousands of artists contributed to landing an exploratory space craft on a comet? > > Art, without a doubt, has an important role to play in human lives. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the list of giants on whose shoulders humanity stands: Archimedes, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Curie, Mendeleev, Darwin, Bohr, Einstein… Do you know how many engineers at the JPL or in NASA cite Star Trek as the reason they got into being an engineer? The first people to go to the moon were writers and actors and movie makers. Art or imagination leads the way. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/12 "2014-11-14T16:56:51Z")
@ **Quicksilver** I never meant to dismiss scientists. Not at all. Perhaps in my rush to defend art, which I consider an absolutely vital part of a healthy civilization, I chose my words poorly. I was actually reacting at the nonsense quoted in the OP: > [@](#): > > "Medical research increases life expectancy (in a measurable way). New engineering methods reduce costs, distances, times, etc. (in a measurable way). R+D increases GDP and employment rates (in a measurable way). > > A lunatic splashing a couple of lines on a canvas or a weirdo writing a pasodoble does not provide anything measurable or objective. The world will go on whether they provide that or not. We don’t need them." I won’t say that the millions of people who are engaged in medical research, engineerig and R&D are useless. That would be utterly moronic. What I’m saying is that we don’t remember their names. Yet, we remember the names of the great artists (and scientists I hasten to add). Why is that? Because the latter go beyond purely utilitarian achievement. The great artists and scientists define our very identity and that of our civilization. Replace the word “lunatic” in the above quote by “crazy professor” and I’d have reacted in exactly the same way. There has been an anti-art, anti-science and anti-intellectual trend in recent years that is pure, evil destructiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/13 "2014-11-14T16:57:59Z")
Sure, art is valuable, so long as you’re actually talking about art. The real threat to art doesn’t come from the pragmatists or the engineers or the accountants-- It comes from the talentless hacks that insist that anything’s art if its creator claims that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/14 "2014-11-14T17:04:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do tell… Well, look around your house. How many books, or paintings, or albums do you own where you know the name of the person who made it? Now compare that to the number of “useful inventions” around your house whose inventors you can name. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/15 "2014-11-14T17:18:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, art is valuable, so long as you’re actually talking about art. The real threat to art doesn’t come from the pragmatists or the engineers or the accountants-- It comes from the talentless hacks that insist that anything’s art if its creator claims that it is. True. But it also comes from the morons who say: “I don’t get it/don’t like it so it’s rubbish.” Or the wonderful: “My three year-old could do this.” No. No, he couldn’t. And neither could you. And to make sure it’s not misinterpreted, these comments are not directed at anyone in particular. They’re things have observed or heard through the years. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/16 "2014-11-14T17:22:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do tell… As you should have been able to gather from the rest of my post, and as others have been pointed out to you more explicitly, you misconstrued what **Les Espaces Du Sommeil** was saying, and were arguing against a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/17 "2014-11-14T17:38:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, art is valuable, so long as you’re actually talking about art. The real threat to art doesn’t come from the pragmatists or the engineers or the accountants-- It comes from the talentless hacks that insist that anything’s art if its creator claims that it is. Bad art is not a threat to art. There have been talentless hacks churning out bad art as long as there’s been art. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/18 "2014-11-14T17:40:12Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > @ **Quicksilver** > > I never meant to dismiss scientists. Not at all. Perhaps in my rush to defend art, which I consider an absolutely vital part of a healthy civilization, I chose my words poorly. I think we’re on the same page. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/19 "2014-11-14T17:58:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, art is valuable, so long as you’re actually talking about art. The real threat to art doesn’t come from the pragmatists or the engineers or the accountants-- It comes from the talentless hacks that insist that anything’s art if its creator claims that it is. OK, so who decides what is “Art” and what isn’t? You? My wife and and I both like Contemporary Art. I have a very good friend who’s wife is a curator at the National Art Gallery in DC. Her take on Art is that anything after the 15th century isn’t Art. Which I OK, if that’s what she really believes, but if it’s “true,” then it’s a sad commentary on society that we peaked 600 years ago and it’s been all downhill since then. I don’t believe that Art needs to be portraits of people in wigs, bowls of fruit, or cherubs. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617/20 "2014-11-14T18:10:21Z")
The true test of art is not popularity but time. Come back in 200 years and tell me if someone is still looking at, listening to or reading it. And when you come back, bring pie. Did you know that J.S. Bach was never a very ‘popular’ composer in his lifetime? Some people liked him but most thought his stuff was a bit ‘old fashioned’ for the time. How many painters where ‘not successful’ during their lifetimes? Authors? Sure, a lot of stuff from today will fall by the wayside over time but not all of it. You can’t tell about today’s art. Nobody can. You can like it or dislike all you want, but you really can’t judge it as art. Only time can do that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-art/704617.md?page=2)