# In defense of Genesis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745 "2022-03-26T14:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/81 "2022-03-28T20:47:02Z")
I’m sorry, but I’m a bit confused as to the question you are trying to resolve by debate. I understand your proposal - God creating multiple humans _ex nihilo_ to populate the Earth. But if we are not debating the consistency of that proposal with the book of Genesis, what are we debating? You wrote, > I have to admit that one element in Genesis that I’ve been mocking actually holds up, unless someone wants to point out something I’m missing here. Holds up to what? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/82 "2022-03-28T20:50:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > Various early commentators have said that Cain and Abel have sisters, usually twin sisters. According to [Rabbi Joshua ben Karha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_ben_Karha) as quoted in [Genesis Rabbah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Rabbah), “Only two entered the bed, and seven left it: Cain and his twin sister, Abel and his two twin sisters.” > > You’re seriously going to source your religious tradition on someone who can’t do basic arithmetic? How does that not add up? Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and three sisters makes seven. It doesn’t explicitly mention Adam and Eve, but that’s standard Rabbinic style; parchment wasn’t cheap, so they left out anything they thought their target audience could figure out for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/83 "2022-03-28T20:51:28Z")
Was going to make that reply but you beat me to it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/84 "2022-03-28T20:56:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Holds up to what? Reason. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/85 "2022-03-28T21:00:52Z")
Rashi, the closest thing Judaism has to an authoritative Torah commentator, goes with the explanation that Cain and Abel had three sisters who aren’t explicitly mentioned for some reason but whose existence can be inferred by minute analysis of some grammatical irregularities in the first two verses of Genesis 4. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/86 "2022-03-28T21:08:50Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > What is a genetic trait that exists in a modern human that does not exist in another species? Eyes? Brains? Ability to stand upright? All ‘modern human traits’ exist in various other species to some degree - some extremely similar, some wildly different. How about chromosome count (which is often a distinguishing trait between closely-related species)? Modern humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Go back far enough, and our ancestors had a different number (22, I think?). And there would be one specific individual who was the first to have that number of chromosomes. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/87 "2022-03-28T21:10:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > (22, I think?) IIRC, 24. Two merged in humans. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/88 "2022-03-28T21:15:12Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > Throwing another wrench in this discussion. Looking at old and even some modern art, both Adam and Eve are depicted with bellybuttons. Why would they have bellybuttons if they were created from mud and rib? Never made sense to me, but it seems most if not all artists thought they did. That would be more indicative of evolution, wouldn’t it? I guess, if you believe in some supernatural sky-being, it doesn’t have to make sense. I once saw a medieval painting of Adam and Eve. You know how artists will paint a nude, but with strategically placed items blocking one’s view of the genitalia? Well, this painting had the naughty bits on full display, but a leaf-covered branch reached out from the edge of the picture to block out their stomachs. The artist was ostentatiously not taking sides in the debate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/89 "2022-03-28T21:16:26Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Reason. There are many ways to reason about something. I reason that only Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, thus any other humans created by God have nothing to do with the lineage of Noah & his descendants. I reason, your defense of Genesis is not in consistent with Genesis, and therefore not a defense. The concept of creatio ex nihilo is also contrary to the basic assumption in science, _ex nihilo nihil fit_, or nothing comes from nothing; which manifests today in such principles as the conservation of energy or biogenesis. It is also something I cannot conceive of as falsifiable (see: Omphalos hypothesis). I reason, your defense of Genesis is not consistent with science, and therefore not a scientific defense. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/90 "2022-03-28T21:25:47Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It doesn’t explicitly mention Adam and Eve, but that’s standard Rabbinic style; parchment wasn’t cheap, so they left out anything they thought their target audience could figure out for themselves. That’s very _convenient_, isn’t it? I’m trying not to comment on the contents but just take a metalook at the resulting discussion. The contents are an endless swamp. > [@leahcim](#): > > IIRC, 24. Two merged in humans. That’s a fact that took so long to percolate into popular science that The Female Eunuch (1970) still gave humans 48, making us much closer to the apes than even Darwin thought. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/91 "2022-03-28T21:37:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it is called a “book” but it is part of a larger work, the **Pentateuch** and the whole OT. I don’t disagree. I guess I’m not sure what point you are making. Genesis is a piece of literature. Call it a “book” or a section or a chapter or a “part” it makes no difference to whether the contents are in any way true. > [@DrDeth](#): > > True, Genesis, _taken on it’s own_ is myth and legend. As we get further on in the OT the writing get less mythical. then less legendary, then gets historical. I think that “gets historical” is a pretty big claim. I’m not sure that much in the OT rises above the level of historicity that we’d assign King Arthur or Robin Hood, if that. One foundational tale is the slavery in Egypt and subsequent escape. That’s pretty important and yet there is no evidence that anything like it ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/92 "2022-03-28T21:42:43Z")
> I’m trying not to comment on the contents but just take a metalook at the resulting discussion. The contents are an endless swamp. I’m not sure what discussion or contents you are referring to, and I don’t know what a “metalook” is. And what’s with the “convenient” crack? This is hardly some strained effort to reconcile an obvious contradiction. Do you really think that “this is one of thousands of examples of highly terse and concise Rabbinic writings” is a less plausible explanation than “second-century Rabbis actually couldn’t add one-digit numbers?”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/93 "2022-03-28T21:51:08Z")
It was a joke referencing [The Church Lady,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_Lady) just as the original comment was a joke. [Are there any jokes in the Bible?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342310/are-there-any-jokes-in-the-bible) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/94 "2022-03-28T22:00:04Z")
Ah, sorry, whooshed. Cecil missed some obvious ones; there’s the story about the king who was assassinated in his private chambers, and the contents of his guts spilled out, so the assassin got away because the king’s staff smelled the shit and assumed the king was “busy”. Boffo yocks. Also, the whole Book of Esther is basically a comic novella, and the story of Balaam and the talking donkey (Numbers 22-24) is clearly played at least partially for laughs. And I’ve always liked the complaining Israelites asking Moses “So you brought us out here to starve in the desert because there weren’t enough graves in Egypt?”. But the classic setup/punchline structure isn’t really found in Biblical literature as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/95 "2022-03-28T22:11:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think that “gets historical” is a pretty big claim. I’m not sure that much in the OT rises above the level of historicity that we’d assign King Arthur or Robin Hood, if that. > One foundational tale is the slavery in Egypt and subsequent escape. That’s pretty important and yet there is no evidence that anything like it ever happened. Exodus is still very early on, and the events there are almost certainly legendary, perhaps based upon a much more local and limited event. We know there was a King David but that is about it. 99% legendary. The whole United Kingdom is legendary. But that is not even the first third of the OT. As we go on, more and more of the various Kings of Judah start to crop up in secondary sources and archaeological digs. > **[53 People in the Bible Confirmed Archaeologically](https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/)** > > In “Archaeology Confirms 50 Real People in the Bible” Lawrence Mykytiuk lists 50 figures from the Hebrew Bible who have been confirmed archaeologically. > **[53 People in the Bible Confirmed Archaeologically](https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/#note17r)** > > In “Archaeology Confirms 50 Real People in the Bible” Lawrence Mykytiuk lists 50 figures from the Hebrew Bible who have been confirmed archaeologically. King Ahaz for example: > **[Ahaz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaz)** > > Ahaz (Hebrew: אָחָז, ʼĀḥāz, "has held"; Greek: Ἄχαζ, Ἀχάζ Akhaz; Latin: Achaz) an abbreviation of Jehoahaz II (of Judah), "Yahweh has held" (Hebrew: יְהוֹאָחָז, Modern: Yəhō’aḥaz, Tiberian: Yŏhō’āḥāz; Akkadian: 𒅀𒌑𒄩𒍣 Ya'úḫazi \[ia-ú-ḫa-zi\]) was the twelfth king of Judah, and the son and successor of Jotham. Ahaz was 20 when he became king of Judah and reigned for 16 years. > Ahaz is portrayed as an evil king in the Second Book of Kings (2 Kings 16:2). > In Edwin R. Thiele's opinion, Ahaz was co-regen... _Another important source regarding the historicity of Ahaz comes from the [Tiglath-Pileser III](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglath-Pileser_III) [annals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrud_Tablet_K.3751), mentioning tributes and payments he received from Ahaz, king of Judah and [Menahem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem), king of Israel.[[17]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaz#cite_note-17)[[18]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaz#cite_note-18) Furthermore, in 2015, [Eilat Mazar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat_Mazar) discovered a royal bulla of the Judean king [Hezekiah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah), biblical son of Ahaz, that reads “Belonging to Hezekiah [son of] Ahaz king of Judah”, and dates to between 727 and 698 BC.[[19]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaz#cite_note-19)_ Or Omri: > **[Omri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omri)** > > Omri (/ˈɒmraɪ/ OM-ry; Hebrew: .mw-parser-output .script-hebrew,.mw-parser-output .script-Hebr{font-family:"SBL Hebrew","SBL BibLit","Taamey Ashkenaz","Taamey Frank CLM","Frank Ruehl CLM","Ezra SIL","Ezra SIL SR","Keter Aram Tsova","Taamey David CLM","Keter YG","Shofar","David CLM","Hadasim CLM","Simple CLM","Nachlieli",Cardo,Alef,"Noto Serif Hebrew","Noto Sans Hebrew","David Libre",David,"Times New Roman",Gisha,Arial,FreeSerif,FreeSans}עָמְרִי‎, ‘Omrī; Akkadian: 𒄷𒌝𒊑𒄿 Ḫûmrî \[ḫu-um-ri-i\]; fl. 9th... _The Moabite [Mesha stele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_stele) (on display in the [Louvre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louvre)) indicates that Omri expanded his holdings to include northern [Moab](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab) east of the [Jordan River](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River). It makes reference to the oppression of Moab by “Omri King of Israel”. Israel would later become identified in sources as the “[House of Omri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Omri)” ( Bit-Humria ),[[13]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omri#cite_note-JBP-13) with the term “Israel” being used less and less as history progressed (the other defining term for “Israel” is “Samaria”, beginning in the reign of [Joash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoash_of_Israel))_ Or Hezekiah: > **[Hezekiah | Archaeological record](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah#Archaeological_record)** > > A lintel inscription, found over the doorway of a tomb, has been ascribed to his secretary, Shebnah. > Storage jars with the so-called "LMLK seal" may "demonstrate careful preparations to counter Sennacherib's likely route of invasion" and show "a notable degree of royal control of towns and cities which would facilitate Hezekiah's destruction of rural sacrificial sites and his centralization of worship in Jerusalem". Evidence suggests they were used throughout his 29-year reign. > There are some b... Is any of that pure history as we think of it today? No, of course not. Almost nothing the ancients wrote is that kind of modern history. Most of it is heavily biased and full of boasting. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/96 "2022-03-28T22:34:51Z")
Heck, most of modern historical writing is heavily biased and full of boasting. Not the majority of the stuff that’s well-received by scholars, maybe, but there’s a lot of low-quality history work out there still. As for jokes, the Old Testament is chock full of puns. Any line of “And she named her son \_\_\_\_, because \_\_\_\_”, for instance, is usually a pun, with the actual name having one clear meaning, and the purported reason having a completely different (but similarly-pronounced) meaning. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/97 "2022-03-28T22:44:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Heck, most of modern historical writing is heavily biased and full of boasting. Not the majority of the stuff that’s well-received by scholars, maybe, but there’s a lot of low-quality history work out there still. Yep. For example The Decline and Fall by Edward Gibbon is very biased and now outdated He is heavily anti Church , and falsely blames the Destruction of the Library of Alexandria on “the Christians” . ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/98 "2022-03-28T22:48:50Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > Looking at old and even some modern art, both Adam and Eve are depicted with bellybuttons. Why would they have bellybuttons if they were created from mud and rib? Never made sense to me, but it seems most if not all artists thought they did. That would be more indicative of evolution, wouldn’t it? I guess, if you believe in some supernatural sky-being, it doesn’t have to make sense. There was definitely debate about it; but the debate had nothing to do with evolution. Normal humans have bellybuttons. Adam and Eve didn’t need to have bellybuttons – but, if they didn’t, then they weren’t normal humans. Would God have made them with bellybuttons rather than make them, by some ideas of perfection, imperfect as humans? That’s what the debate was. Some artists took one side, some the other; and some, as @mbh said, dodged the issue. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I reason that only Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, thus any other humans created by God have nothing to do with the lineage of Noah & his descendants. I reason, your defense of Genesis is not in consistent with Genesis, and therefore not a defense. You could argue that the only children from such lineages who survived, by the time of Noah, were those from matings with descendents of Adam and Eve; so everybody was within a few hundred or even a few score years a descendent of Adam and Eve, even if they were also descendents of other people. > [@Chronos](#): > > How about chromosome count (which is often a distinguishing trait between closely-related species)? Modern humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Go back far enough, and our ancestors had a different number (22, I think?). And there would be one specific individual who was the first to have that number of chromosomes. As near as I can tell, we don’t know how far back that is, other than that it’s after the split with chimps, and before the one with Neanderthals and Denisovans. What if it was soon after the split from the chimps? Ardipithecus and australopithecus and paranthropus were hominins, yes – but were they humans? and how many chromosomes did they have? And whoever that person was who first had 23 and produced viable progeny: they must have done so, somehow, with somebody/ies who had 24. If we had those two (or more) here now alive: what sort of sense would it make to say that one of them was human, and the other(s) weren’t? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/99 "2022-03-28T23:00:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He is heavily anti Church , and falsely blames the Destruction of the Library of Alexandria on “the Christians” . So it was a muslim caliph – is there a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Galactus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galactus/32/3581_2.png) [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745/100 "2022-03-28T23:27:21Z")
Is the talking snake that tricks Eve into committing original sin Adams’s penis? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-genesis/961745.md?page=6)