# In Defense of Irene Adler **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [April 10, 2025, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849 "2025-04-10T02:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/21 "2025-04-10T21:47:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > A quiet opera singer just would not do here. Feels like that’s missing the single most important qualification for being an opera singer. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/22 "2025-04-10T22:01:09Z")
Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lantern2/32/3010_2.png) [@Lantern2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/23 "2025-04-10T22:51:11Z")
Actually I am baffled they just dropped the Irene Adler character after one episode in Sherlock. I think she would have been a great recurring character and certainly better than their other attempts to build a “strong female character” like making Mary Watson into a secret agent and Eurus Holmes. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/24 "2025-04-10T23:51:53Z")
I hate to be a drag, but maybe the concentration on Adler and Moriarty is because none of the other characters in the stories are the least bit memorable. They may exist out there somewhere. Google AI tells me: > There are a vast number of Sherlock Holmes pastiches. While a precise count is difficult to obtain, one online resource has indexed over 2,200 short stories, 496 novels, 214 children’s/young adult stories, and 63 comic strips or graphic novels related to Sherlock Holmes. This suggests that there are thousands of pastiches in existence, with more being added over time. Other sites talk about over 250 movies and television shows. Who else from the stories would you suggest? The Hound of the Baskervilles? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/25 "2025-04-10T23:57:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Who else from the stories would you suggest? Lestrade? Mycroft? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/26 "2025-04-11T00:40:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Lestrade? Mycroft? There are a lot of pastiches with each of those two as the main character. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/27 "2025-04-11T03:04:27Z")
True. But I think it helps my point that they eliminate Holmes and Watson and all the people they encountered to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/28 "2025-04-11T03:21:47Z")
The Baker Street Regulars. The wealthy beggar stands out in my mind as a memorable character. You could probably pick out a red headed gentlemen to flesh out into a proper character. And perhaps I’m misremembering, but I believe that the Adventure of the Dancing Men involved the Pinkertons and the KKK. It seemed like it could have been a much larger story, with more characters and more depth of character. I mean, really, Moriarty barely even exists in the _one_ story he appears in. So far as memorable characters go, in Sherlock Holmes stories, almost any person who appears in a story does better than Moriarty. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/29 "2025-04-11T05:14:44Z")
One way of putting it is that Sherlock Holmes is the most portrayed fictional character of all time. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/30 "2025-04-11T10:46:18Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And perhaps I’m misremembering, but I believe that the Adventure of the Dancing Men involved the Pinkertons and the KKK. You are, but it’s understandable . **The Valley of Fear** involves a thinly-disguised version of the Pinkertons (working against a thinly-disguised group of Molly Maguires), and **The Adventure of the Five Orange Pips** has the KKK, but The Dancing Men _does_ involve a Chicago crime syndicate. As one critic remarked, in the Holmes stories American seems to be a land crawling with (mostly) evil secret societies. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/31 "2025-04-11T10:48:54Z")
> [@De\_La\_Rue](#): > > No he didn’t, they both survive. Also, it’s _League of Extraordinary **Gentlemen** _. That’s what I get for typing too fast. Holmes gets fatally shot by Colonel Moran during the REichenbach Falls incident, so , although he survives the fall, he doesn;t survive the encounter. Or did Moore pull a late twist in which Holmes says he faked his death? I’ve read al of the LXG saga except some of the “Nemo” series, and I don’t recall this. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/32 "2025-04-11T12:12:49Z")
> [@Lantern2](#): > > Actually I am baffled they just dropped the Irene Adler character after one episode in Sherlock She was mentioned in later episodes when she was texting Sherlock on his birthday. Also briefly appeared in ‘The sign of three’. ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/33 "2025-04-11T13:20:42Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Holmes gets fatally shot by Colonel Moran during the REichenbach Falls incident, so , although he survives the fall, he doesn;t survive the encounter. Again, no. Moran says he can pick off Holmes with his air-rifle, but I believe Moriarty tells him not to. Holmes survives because there’s a later mention of him when the New Traveller’s Almanac in vol. 2. says Mina Murray visited “an elderly bee-keeper who resided near the seaside cove of Fulworth” in 1904. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/34 "2025-04-11T13:32:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Her portrayal in **Sherlock** was more of a dominatrix sex goddess. The **Sherlock** treatment of Adler really was a disgrace. Not because of the dominatrix sex goddess bit (although that is just a little tacky). It was the writers’ insistence that Holmes has to win. In the story, Adler sees through Holmes’ ruse, outmaneuvers him and leaves him behind to securely obtain everything she wants, free of future retribution. In **Sherlock** , > **Summary** > > that’s the first half of the story. Then she shows up again to manipulate Sherlock into serving her ends, almost succeeds but is ultimately outwitted by the great detective and forced to go on the run, penniless and desperate, facing likely death at the hands of one or other of the criminal enterprises her failure to outwit Sherlock has enraged. The episode ends with her on her knees and powerless while Sherlock stands over her wielding his enormous chopper. It’s not subtle. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/35 "2025-04-11T14:17:35Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > **The Adventure of the Five Orange Pips** has the KKK Ahah. Yes, it’s probably been 20 years since I last read a Holmes story. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/36 "2025-04-11T14:45:38Z")
I’ve long thought that Conan Doyle was ahead of his time in his depiction of Sherlock Holmes-- a flawed hero who seems very much to be someone on the autism spectrum, long before it was a known or understood condition-- Holmes’ lack of, and complete disinterest in, social skills; his singular obsessions; his savant-like deductive abilities. Doyle seems to similarly be ahead of his time with his depiction of Irene Adler-- a highly accomplished woman who is the intellectual equal of Holmes. Pretty insightful stuff for a guy who believed in fairies and spirits. Though to be fair, those kinds of beliefs or interests were kind of de rigueur at the time. Speaking of modern depictions of Doyle’s Holmes oeuvre, despite all the creative license employed, one depiction the more modern versions actually have come around on is Watson’s character. I used to love Sherlock Holmes stories as a kid, around 11 or 12, and one thing that really bugged me at the time was the TV and movie depictions of Watson-- I’m thinking of the Basil Rathbone Holmes era as one example-- in which Watson was depicted as a dim-witted, bumbling fool. This, I think, led to a whole trope of the ‘bumbling sidekick’ who often said something completely inadvertently that would give the ‘smart’ partner the revelation they needed. “Brilliant, Watson!” (while Watson was like, huh? Wha’d I say that was so brilliant?"). Gilligan comes to mind as an analogue of the trope. But the Doyle Watson was a medical doctor, and the in-story writer of the Holmes adventures, so he was not lacking in the intellectual department, just a ‘normie’ who lacked Holmes’ savant-like abilities. He was also likely no slouch in a physical confrontation, having fought in the Boer War. This thread is making me want to buy a complete Sherlock Holmes collection on Kindle and re-read everything. I’ve done similar with the complete works of Poe and Lovecraft. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/37 "2025-04-11T14:51:36Z")
> [@solost](#): > > I’ve long thought that Conan Doyle was ahead of his time in his depiction of Sherlock Holmes– The stories are also remarkably progressive. The KKK are unambiguous villains, there’s no moral judgement passed on an interracial marriage (he famously got the biology wrong concerning their child, but that’s ignorance, not bigotry), none of his opponents are ever executed, and a large part of his success is due to his treating of the invisible underclass on an equal footing with the middle class and elites. > [@solost](#): > > But the Doyle Watson was a medical doctor, In fact, in the original stories, when a question of medicine comes up (which it does, from time to time), Holmes defers to Watson’s expertise. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/38 "2025-04-11T14:56:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In fact, in the original stories, when a question of medicine comes up (which it does, from time to time), Holmes defers to Watson’s expertise. Yes, in terms of knowledge of the world, he was Holmes’ superior in many areas. I remember one story in which Watson said he was astonished to find out that Holmes was not aware that the Earth revolved around the Sun; since it was information that was useless to Holmes’ particular obsessions. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/39 "2025-04-11T14:58:14Z")
> [@solost](#): > > He was also likely no slouch in a physical confrontation, having fought in the Boer War. Actually the Second Anglo-Afghan War. Watson served as a surgeon, so he didn’t really “fight.” He was also wounded very soon after being deployed, so he didn’t serve very long. It’s true, though, that as a military man he was likely in good condition. He also had, unlike Holmes, “an experience of women which extends over many nations and three separate continents.” Hardly the bumbling Nigel Bruce type. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849/40 "2025-04-11T15:00:01Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Actually the Second Anglo-Afghan War. Oh, thanks for the clarification! Another impetus for me to re-read the collected stories of Sherlock Holmes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-defense-of-irene-adler/1016849.md?page=3)