# In Dungeons & Dragons, could you theoretically have a sorceror wizard? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 16, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794 "2011-10-16T04:39:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/21 "2011-10-17T02:55:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, even the 3.5 version of Archmage isn’t bad. Compared to straight wizard, you give up a small number of spell slots, in exchange for a small amount of versatility-- A reasonable deal. Not at these prices, it isn’t. An 8th level slot to be able to change a fireball into an iceball (hint: 8th level has Horrid Wilting. Also Maze and Polymorph Any Object.) ? A 7th level slot to get the equivalent of a Spectral Hand ? A _9th_ level slot to do single target direct damage ? Yeah, no. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/22 "2011-10-17T10:28:30Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Grumman, this is not quite right. The test to see which class can be increased at 1st, 4th and 7th levels is whichever class has the lower _caster level_. I know, but seeing as the OP is unfamiliar with D&D I thought providing the simple example first would be most useful. > [@Kobal2](#): > > A 7th level slot to get the equivalent of a Spectral Hand ? Spectral Hand doesn’t let you use Chain Spell. Not really useful for your run-of-the-mill mage, but an Incantrix/Recaster meta-mage can do some hilarious things with it, like seeding an entire library with Explosive Runes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/23 "2011-10-17T11:52:40Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Chronos referred to the Ultimate Maus prestige class above. I’ve read that graphic novel. I don’t want that class. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/24 "2011-10-17T13:13:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not at these prices, it isn’t. An 8th level slot to be able to change a fireball into an iceball (hint: 8th level has Horrid Wilting. Also Maze and Polymorph Any Object.) ? A 7th level slot to get the equivalent of a Spectral Hand ? A _9th_ level slot to do single target direct damage ? Yeah, no. But a 6th level slot for Master of Shaping? Sign me up. The requirements of Archmage are trivial thanks to Master Specialist, so even a reasonably vanilla wizard can take a low-cost dip. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/25 "2011-10-17T18:31:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, even the 3.5 version of Archmage isn’t bad. Compared to straight wizard, you give up a small number of spell slots, in exchange for a small amount of versatility-- A reasonable deal. Or the opposite of this–use the “Spell-like Ability” high arcana to trade flexibility for double your spell slots (or more). > [@Kobal2](#): > > A 9th level slot to do single target direct damage? First of all, it does single target direct damage that BYPASSES SPELL RESISTANCE (Su keyword!). Second of all, as my DM understood it, buying it once means you can cast every other spell slot as arcane fire, every day. So you never have to prepare a single-target direct damage spell ever again. Yeah, I’m not seeing the essential uselessness here. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/26 "2011-10-17T20:22:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not at these prices, it isn’t. An 8th level slot to be able to change a fireball into an iceball (hint: 8th level has Horrid Wilting. Also Maze and Polymorph Any Object.) ? A 7th level slot to get the equivalent of a Spectral Hand ? A _9th_ level slot to do single target direct damage ? Yeah, no. Mastery of Elements allows the character to change any one element into any other. _Including_ Sonic. Very few creatures have substantial sonic resistance. You’re sacrificing one 8th level slot to make all your other spells more useful. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’ve read that graphic novel. I don’t want that class. There’s a graphic novel? And it’s fun. Bring on the epic progression I devised last weekend; the DM seems to think it’s ok (we discussed it last night.) Twinning a Disintegrate or Finger of Death is now a minor ambition of mine. > [@Grumman](#): > > I know, but seeing as the OP is unfamiliar with D&D I thought providing the simple example first would be most useful. Fair enough; I saw several arguments about this back in the day, and it’ important too understand that is the designer’s intent. I should have recollected the Incantator. I looked at it with an eye to taking the class. It won’t suit my character though - he introduced himself by saying that he knows more arcane spells than the other PCs minds could grasp. So I’ll have to pass this one up. Drat - both classes have a focus on metamagic. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Or the opposite of this–use the “Spell-like Ability” high arcana to trade flexibility for double your spell slots (or more). > > First of all, it does single target direct damage that BYPASSES SPELL RESISTANCE (Su keyword!). > > Second of all, as my DM understood it, buying it once means you can cast every other spell slot as arcane fire, every day. So you never have to prepare a single-target direct damage spell ever again. > > Yeah, I’m not seeing the essential uselessness here. I agree with your DM. You can use any spell as a point direct damage spell. The damage is anywhere from 2d6 to 14d6, depending on the level of spell you sacrifice. As a supernatural ability it is not blocked by SR (although an antimagic field would block it), and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity to use the ability. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/27 "2011-10-17T23:07:48Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Second of all, as my DM understood it, buying it once means you can cast every other spell slot as arcane fire, every day. So you never have to prepare a single-target direct damage spell ever again. > > Yeah, I’m not seeing the essential uselessness here. By the time you’re casting 9th level spells, direct damage has long given way to save-or-die, and ways to make your save-or-die spells stick. So you never prepare a single-target direct damage spell ever again anyway. Besides, wizards are not and have never really been about single-target direct damage. They leave that to the [del]meat puppets[/del]very valuable team members who carry blunt instruments and similar metalworks. But don’t let me stop you from giving away some of your ultimate control over reality itself to turn yourself into a poor man’s \*Warlock \*;). [QUOTE=MHaye] Mastery of Elements allows the character to change any one element into any other. _Including_ Sonic. Very few creatures have substantial sonic resistance. You’re sacrificing one 8th level slot to make all your other spells more useful. [/QUOTE] Again, if by the time you’re casting 8th level spells you’re still relying on elemental direct damage spells to clean rooms, you’re doing it wrong. I’ll grant that a 5th level slot to get +1 effective caster level is pretty boss. Not sure it’s worth giving away Wizard feats though. > [@](#): > > There’s a graphic novel? He’s talking about [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus). It’s not a cheery book 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/28 "2011-10-18T00:04:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > By the time you’re casting 9th level spells, direct damage has long given way to save-or-die, and ways to make your save-or-die spells stick. So you never prepare a single-target direct damage spell ever again anyway. I dunno about YOUR Dungeonmasters, but mine had a word for people expecting a CR15+ target to fail a save: “Suckers”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/29 "2011-10-18T00:55:52Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I dunno about YOUR Dungeonmasters, but mine had a word for people expecting a CR15+ target to fail a save: “Suckers”. This is kinda why I said that the 3.0 Archmage was way better. With the right high arcana and spell penetration and focus feats, your spells _will_ land, consistently. I remember that for spell resistance you’d only need a natural 2 or 3 to punch through in most cases. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/30 "2011-10-18T01:02:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I dunno about YOUR Dungeonmasters, but mine had a word for people expecting a CR15+ target to fail a save: “Suckers”. [They all roll a 1](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html). [Eventually](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html). As good a reason as any not to toss away perfectly good spell slots for marginal benefits, and perfectly good save-messing feats for meh prestige classes. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/31 "2011-10-19T17:31:45Z")
> [@the other waldo pepper](#): > > i’ve read that graphic novel. I don’t want that class. iswydt. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/32 "2011-10-19T18:17:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > [They all roll a 1](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html). [Eventually](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html). As good a reason as any not to toss away perfectly good spell slots for marginal benefits, and perfectly good save-messing feats for meh prestige classes. That might be true, but even if I’m a 20th-caster-level Wizard with 30 Int, I only get a cumulative total of 21 spells of 6-9th level. If he has to roll a 1 to fail, one of those is going to work on average. If he can re-roll a failed save for any reason, I’m downright fucked if I don’t have any direct damage up my sleeve. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/33 "2011-10-19T19:16:09Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > That might be true, but even if I’m a 20th-caster-level Wizard with 30 Int, I only get a cumulative total of 21 spells of 6-9th level. If he has to roll a 1 to fail, one of those is going to work on average. If he can re-roll a failed save for any reason, I’m downright fucked if I don’t have any direct damage up my sleeve. But your direct damage is also mostly save-based, and doesn’t do all that much on a successful save. All spellcasters are always and everywhere best off pumping their save DC’s as high as possible. And then stacking abusing prestige classes and poorly-written magic items to stack metamagic rather than taking the useless things. Edit: something I recalled: this also lets your weak spells become incredibly useful. Hold Person not keeping up? Keep increasing the save DC and paralyze those high-level mooks. Then stab them to death with Coup de Gras. Level 1 spells don’t do the trick much, but from level 2 onwards there’s plenty of good spells to stop a variety of enemies. And you can always keep scrolls around for direct damage attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/34 "2011-10-19T19:51:20Z")
I’ve played one high-level campaign, and I’m pretty sure my save DCs were in the totally ridiculous range by the end of the game: Wisdom of something like 28 (+6 item, +5 stat increases, starting stat of 17) for a +9, spell focus/gsf for +2 on my favored school of transmutation, meaning that saves for first level spells were at 22, and 9th level spells were 30. Plenty of high-level creatures got smacked around by my spells. The trick is always careful targeting: don’t hit rogues with reflex saves, don’t hit brutes with fort saves, don’t hit casters with will saves. Also, unless you’re going for the phat hit, you want to do a coup de grace, pronouncing the /s/ at the end :). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/35 "2011-10-19T20:05:49Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > But your direct damage is also mostly save-based, and doesn’t do all that much on a successful save. Arcane Fire, the ability under discussion, specifically avoids both spell resistance AND saves. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/36 "2011-10-19T20:08:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Plenty of high-level creatures got smacked around by my spells. Your DM is very different from mine, but then again half of high-level D&D is tailoring to cope with your DM. > [@](#): > > The trick is always careful targeting: don’t hit rogues with reflex saves, don’t hit brutes with fort saves, don’t hit casters with will saves. I love getting save-bonus feats that specifically mess with this kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/37 "2011-10-19T21:17:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Arcane Fire, the ability under discussion, specifically avoids both spell resistance AND saves. And as a trade off does poor damage with a high cost. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/38 "2011-10-19T21:25:06Z")
Also at high levels, spells that disallow saves and/or SR become increasingly relevant. Off the top of my head, Enervation, Energy Drain, Waves of Exhaustion, Otto’s Irresistable Dance, and Power Word: Kill don’t offer any save, and Solid Fog, Acid Fog, Reverse Gravity, and Trap the Soul get around both saves and SR. Or there are plenty of non-Core spells that do likewise, or there’s always the option of using your magic on the terrain, or summoning things, or buffing up party members. Heck, no-relevant-save, no-SR spells show up as early as 2nd level, with Web (technically it has a save, but it makes almost no difference whether you pass or fail). ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/39 "2011-10-19T22:14:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also at high levels, spells that disallow saves and/or SR become increasingly relevant. Off the top of my head, Enervation, Energy Drain, Waves of Exhaustion, Otto’s Irresistable Dance, and Power Word: Kill don’t offer any save, and Solid Fog, Acid Fog, Reverse Gravity, and Trap the Soul get around both saves and SR. Or there are plenty of non-Core spells that do likewise, or there’s always the option of using your magic on the terrain, or summoning things, or buffing up party members. Heck, no-relevant-save, no-SR spells show up as early as 2nd level, with Web (technically it has a save, but it makes almost no difference whether you pass or fail). Non-core is definitely the way to go, since many of these spells suck. The spell you want here is Avasculate. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794/40 "2011-10-19T22:23:00Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Non-core is definitely the way to go, since many of these spells suck. The spell you want here is Avasculate. Of course, the real way to go is Holy Word Cleric. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-dungeons-dragons-could-you-theoretically-have-a-sorceror-wizard/599794.md?page=1)