# In England, how long did Saxon nationalism survive after the Norman Conquest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062 "2012-05-16T05:14:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/41 "2012-05-17T20:41:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And don’t forget the Harrying of the North, during which William essentially committed genocide against the north of England, depopulating it, and making way for his barons to take over. Did Harry object? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/42 "2012-05-17T22:24:13Z")
Harry was busy eating his neighbor after the Conquerer salted the field. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/43 "2012-05-17T22:29:30Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I think the persistence of Saxon nationalism can be seen being expressed in the continuing levels of Saxon violence on TV, in the movies, and on the internet. > > [sub]Sorry. Sorry!![/sub] My girlfriend didn’t like the Saxon Violets I tried to give her, so I recommended a vacation to “Saxon, The Beach”, but that didn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/44 "2012-05-18T00:57:02Z")
Found my copy! From _The Once and Future King,_ Book II, “The Queen of Air and Darkness”: > [@](#): > > “About three thousand years ago,” [Merlin] said [to Arthur], “the country you are riding through belonged to a Gaelic race who fought with copper hatchets. Two thousand years ago they were hunted west by another Gaelic race with bronze swords. A thousand years ago there was a Teuton invasion by people who had iron weapons, but it didn’t reach the whole of the [British] Isles because the Romans arrived in the middle and got mixed up with it. The Romans went away about eight hundred years ago, and then another Teuton invasion – of people mainly called Saxons – drove the whole rag-bag west as usual. The Saxons were just beginning to settle down when your father the Conqueror arrived with his pack of Normans, and that is where we are today. Robin Wood was a Saxon partizan.” > > \ > > “Uther,” he said at length, “your lamented father, was an aggressor. So were his predecessors the Saxons. But if we go on living backward like that, we shall never come to the end of it. The Old Ones themselves were aggressors, against the earlier race of copper hatchets, and even the hatchet fellows were aggressors, against some earlier crew of esquimaux who lived on shells. You simply go on and on, until you come to Cain and Abel. But the point is that the Saxon Conquest did suceed, and so did the Norman Conquest of the Saxons. Your father settled the unfortunate Saxons long ago, however brutally he did it, and when a great many years have passed one ought to be ready to accept a _status quo._ Also I would like to point out that the Norman Conquest was a process of welding small units into bigger ones – while the present revolt of the Gaelic Confederation is a process of disintegration. They want to smash up what we may call the United Kingdom into a lot of piffling little kingdoms of their own. That is wny their reason is not what you might call a good one.” > > He scrathed his chin again, and became wrathful. > > “I never could stomach these nationalists,” he exclaimed. “The destiny of Man is to unite, not to divide. If you keep on dividing you end up as a collection of monkeys throwing nuts at each other out of separate trees.” (Irish Dopers take note! It’s really the Irish whom White is talking about here, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/45 "2012-05-18T01:11:37Z")
I do think Saxon nationalism is anachronistic. I just don’t believe non-nobility had any sort of shared identity like that. In the time period in question most people lived and died within 20 miles of where they were born. Most rebellions started in response to anger at a local lord, and had nothing to do with larger national issues (there really weren’t national issues.) So what you really had were nobles who fought against the new King, but I don’t even know that that is evidence of any Saxon nationalism. In the feudal era the top-level liege lord of a region changed all the time, and was like as not to have the same language and culture as you. One of the key tenets of feudalism is it was very common to fight against someone you had sworn fealty to–regardless of whether or not they had the same cultural background as you. Brothers and fathers went to war against each other all the time, that was just the way it was. If there was anything akin to Saxon nationalism I think it was just that it gave nobles a “good excuse” to try and topple the King. If you look at history of feudal Europe people were big on advancing claims and justifications for doing their warring, be it based on random invented (or real) ancient claims or deeds, disputed lineages or etc. A Saxon who wanted to try and become King had a powerful tool in that he could go to other Saxon nobles and use the current King’s “nationality” against him to help recruit co-conspirators. But I don’t think it was truly anything like nationalism in the present sense. It was more about personal avarice and desire for power, not an idealistic or emotional connection to some vague sense of “tribe.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/46 "2012-05-18T15:13:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … > > If there was anything akin to Saxon nationalism I think it was just that it gave nobles a “good excuse” to try and topple the King. > > … As I understand it, this also gave William the reason to wipe a lot of them out and therefore reward his friends, the one who helped him get to be king, who also happened to speak French - as the new nobles over the land. If you insist on fighting the new king, don’t be surprised if he wins and your family is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/47 "2012-05-18T15:31:20Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Yeah, I thought I read somewhere how few were actually produced. But then, every western seemed to have one. Plus - how much ammo would you need to lug around in the days when horsecart was the pinnacle of load hauling? In an era of single shot breechloading rifles, they did consume what would have seemed like an awful lot of ammo. Compared to the recoil-operated, belt fed designs that came on the scene in the closing years of the 19th century, they were actually pretty leisurely in their rate of fire and anorexic in their ammo consumption. They couldn’t fire any faster than the operator could turn the crank. That guy’s arm muscles had to make everything mechanical about the gun work. No energy was harvested from the cartridges for any part of the feeding or extracting cycles. The main reasons they never saw much use were: 1. Weight. They weighed as much as an artillery piece and were mounted on similar carriages. In an era where much of US military activity consisted of chasing Indians, they were rather too clumsy to drag along a great deal of the time. IIRC, Custer had at least one, and elected to leave them behind. 2. Nobody had any real idea how to make good use of them in battle. The French had the conceptually similar [Mitrailleuse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrailleuse) and it’s failure as a battlefield weapon illustrates what I am talking about. Since the early “machine guns” looked kind of like artillery, there was tendency to try to use them like artillery. Machine gunnery really got figured out just in time for WWI. OTOH, the Gatling and its kin did see a fair amount of use by various navies around the world. Apparently, mounted on a boat they must have been pretty useful for hosing down folks who still thought largely in terms of spears. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/48 "2012-05-19T02:03:37Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Custer had at least one, and elected to leave them behind. As the guy said in the movie, “Custer was a pussy.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062/49 "2012-05-27T05:53:57Z")
[By Rudyard Kipling](http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/norman-and-saxon/) (and long out of copyright, Mods): > [@](#): > > **Norman and Saxon** > > “My son,” said the Norman Baron, "I am dying, and you will be heir > To all the broad acres in England that William gave me for my share > When we conquered the Saxon at Hastings, and a nice little handful it is. > But before you go over to rule it I want you to understand this:— > > "The Saxon is not like us Normans, His manners are not so polite. > But he never means anything serious till he talks about justice and right. > When he stands like an ox in the furrow with his sullen set eyes on your own, > And grumbles, “This isn’t fair dealings,” my son, leave the Saxon alone. > > "You can horsewhip your Gascony archers, or torture your Picardy spears, > But don’t try that game on the Saxon; you’ll have the whole brood round your ears. > From the richest old Thane in the county to the poorest chained serf in the field, > They’ll be at you and on you like hornets, and, if you are wise, you will yield. > > "But first you must master their language, their dialect, proverbs and songs. > Don’t trust any clerk to interpret when they come with the tale of their wrongs. > Let them know that you know what they’re saying; let them feel that you know what to say. > Yes, even when you want to go hunting, hear 'em out if it takes you all day. > > "They’ll drink every hour of the daylight and poach every hour of the dark, > It’s the sport not the rabbits they 're after (we 've plenty of game in the park). > Don’t hang them or cut off their fingers. That’s wasteful as well as unkind, > For a hard-bitten, South-country poacher makes the best man-at-arms you can find. > > "Appear with your wife and the children at their weddings and funerals and feasts. > Be polite but not friendly to Bishops; be good to all poor parish priests. > Say ‘we,’ ‘us’ and ‘ours’ when you’re talking instead of ‘you fellows’ and ‘I.’ > Don’t ride over seeds; keep your temper; and _never you tell 'em a lie!"_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-england-how-long-did-saxon-nationalism-survive-after-the-norman-conquest/622062.md?page=2)