# In fiction, how much does it typically cost to produce an average space-faring warship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423 "2011-06-30T20:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/21 "2011-07-01T14:42:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > 1. No matter what advances are made in technology, the laws of physics and chemistry aren’t going to change. We would have to build ships out of materials that exist today. Any advances involve new combinations of the building blocks we already have. And any new combinations are going to be far more expensive than what we’re using now. Like how plastic is so much more expensive than metal or wood? ---
**Author:** ![diku](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@diku](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diku)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/22 "2011-07-01T15:12:46Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Oh, please. > > 1. Galactic empires are a pulp fiction absurdity. They would be impossible to govern, given the limitation of the speed of light. The British Empire had trouble when it took months of travel time, and they weren’t trying to control an entire planet (they also reached their biggest extent after the invention of the telegraph). > > 2. You’re using pure circular reasoning: If you have a galactic empire, you can build enough ships to create a galactic empire. > > 3. The idea of FTL travel is a necessary plot device; while it can be theorized, no one has come up with any real-world solution. How exactly do you bend space and time? And how do you do it in such a way that you can send an entire ship across the universe? The power requirements would probably make a supernova seem like a AA battery. > > 4. No matter what advances are made in technology, the laws of physics and chemistry aren’t going to change. We would have to build ships out of materials that exist today. Any advances involve new combinations of the building blocks we already have. And any new combinations are going to be far more expensive than what we’re using now. > > 5. We would have to get energy from sources that exist today (at the very basic level, it’s all atomic energy at the root). Antimatter is the magic solution, but on a purely realistic basis, there is no way to create it that won’t cost a fortune, and the idea of being able to harness it dubious, while the idea of being able to harness it _safely_ is absurd. > > 6. ST may _portray_ starships as being battleships. Science fiction used to _portray_ people building spaceships in their backyards and flying to the moon in them. You can portray whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean it can happen. > > It is silly to ask questions about economics in science fiction. Few SF writers care, since it’s not important to the story. The economics never work in any rational way. So pick any number you choose: 50 quatloos, ten HUCs, a billion and half acacia seeds. It’s meaningless. Well, thanks for that Captain Bring-Down. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/23 "2011-07-01T15:29:14Z")
Oh, when will **Don’t Fight The Hypothetical** come and struggle with \*\*RealityChuck \*\*for the soul of this thread? (Oops. Didn’t realize that poster had been banned. Sorry.) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/24 "2011-07-01T16:06:13Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Science fiction never gets economics right. The cost of a starship would be such that no planet could afford more than a couple. It’s just something the genre ignores (to its benefit). There are a few fictional universes where this is the case (Dan Simmons and _Hyperion_, David Feintuch’s _Hope_ series) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/25 "2011-07-01T16:11:10Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. We work to better ourselves. Oooh! Oooh! I wanna better myself by working eighteen hour shifts in an asteroid strip mine! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/26 "2011-07-01T16:13:57Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Oooh! Oooh! I wanna better myself by working eighteen hour shifts in an asteroid strip mine! > > -Joe Done. I want to be a Red Shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/27 "2011-07-01T16:15:09Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Done. > > I want to be a Red Shirt. Okay, now we just need some Space Janitors and some Space Sump Pumpers. Certainly there will be some people who wish to better themselves with Space Mops and Space Shopvacs? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/28 "2011-07-01T16:39:05Z")
I’m signing up for the telephone sanitizers. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/29 "2011-07-01T17:00:03Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Okay, now we just need some Space Janitors and some Space Sump Pumpers. Certainly there will be some people who wish to better themselves with Space Mops and Space Shopvacs? > > -Joe Yo. I assume ot comes with holodeck-vixen priveledges? I got the wetvac after all… Once a week aughta do. ---
**Author:** ![SirRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@SirRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirRay)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/30 "2011-07-01T17:21:20Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Oooh! Oooh! I wanna better myself by working eighteen hour shifts in an asteroid strip mine! Service guarantees Citizenship! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/31 "2011-07-01T17:25:49Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Yo. I assume ot comes with holodeck-vixen priveledges? I got the wetvac after all… Once a week aughta do. So what you’re saying is that basically every waking moment of every day will involve sucking or…sucking? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/32 "2011-07-01T17:40:19Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > So what you’re saying is that basically every waking moment of every day will involve sucking or…sucking? > > -Joe Sucking, or drilling. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/33 "2011-07-01T17:44:02Z")
> [@diku](#): > > Well, thanks for that Captain Bring-Down. Yeah, that’s the thing with modern scientists. In the past, the great thinkers would tell everyone who’d listen that with science, anything is possible; now they take great joy in telling people that their dreams of the future will never come true. I like the old scientists better. Einstein would never say that fast intersteller travel is impossible - he’d say we don’t know how to do it _yet_. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/34 "2011-07-01T18:08:15Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I assume that’s the black hole they keep in the basement that keeps everyone from floating around when the power dies (as it does in every other episode). That’s never bothered me. They’ve got batteries, and it makes sense that things are set up for artificial gravity and its redheaded twin, inertial dampening, to be a top priority, probably second only to oxygen scrubbing. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/35 "2011-07-02T06:25:43Z")
Many have indicated that getting the resources to build star-faring ships is not the difficult part. So I guess this is why many science fic settings introduce an unobtainium to introduce some tension… ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/36 "2011-07-02T06:43:52Z")
One of the central premises behind the _Hammer’s Slammers_ series is that it’s too expensive for most cultures to design and build their own ground-based fighting vehicles, let alone starships. And in _Project Mars: A Technical Tale_ (written by Wernher von Braun!), the first question from one of the project leaders upon hearing the proposal for a Mars expedition is “How much is this going to cost?” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/37 "2011-07-02T06:58:26Z")
It’s a plot point in _Mother of Demons_ that starships are so expensive (since they have to use slower than light extremely high energy ships with no soft sci-fi cheating) that interstellar expeditions are maybe once in a century or two occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/38 "2011-07-03T18:30:53Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. We work to better ourselves. Jake: It means we don’t need money. Nog: Well, if you don’t need money, you certainly don’t need mine. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/39 "2011-07-03T18:48:15Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Oh, please. > > 1. Galactic empires are a pulp fiction absurdity. They would be impossible to govern, given the limitation of the speed of light. The British Empire had trouble when it took months of travel time, and they weren’t trying to control an entire planet (they also reached their biggest extent after the invention of the telegraph). > > 2. You’re using pure circular reasoning: If you have a galactic empire, you can build enough ships to create a galactic empire. > > 3. The idea of FTL travel is a necessary plot device; while it can be theorized, no one has come up with any real-world solution. How exactly do you bend space and time? And how do you do it in such a way that you can send an entire ship across the universe? The power requirements would probably make a supernova seem like a AA battery. > > 4. No matter what advances are made in technology, the laws of physics and chemistry aren’t going to change. We would have to build ships out of materials that exist today. Any advances involve new combinations of the building blocks we already have. And any new combinations are going to be far more expensive than what we’re using now. > > 5. We would have to get energy from sources that exist today (at the very basic level, it’s all atomic energy at the root). Antimatter is the magic solution, but on a purely realistic basis, there is no way to create it that won’t cost a fortune, and the idea of being able to harness it dubious, while the idea of being able to harness it _safely_ is absurd. > > 6. ST may _portray_ starships as being battleships. Science fiction used to _portray_ people building spaceships in their backyards and flying to the moon in them. You can portray whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean it can happen. > > It is silly to ask questions about economics in science fiction. Few SF writers care, since it’s not important to the story. The economics never work in any rational way. So pick any number you choose: 50 quatloos, ten HUCs, a billion and half acacia seeds. It’s meaningless. yes, we are speculating about the cost of building fictional starships, and having fun with that. Relax and enjoy the ride. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423/40 "2011-07-03T19:29:51Z")
Obviously, it depends on what sort of technology you’re imagining. If we’re realistic, there’s no FTL, no ansibles, no magic energy sources, no gravity manipulation, no unobtanium, you obey the laws of physics, and so on. Which means in this scenario the concept of an interstellar warship is incoherent. Who are you fighting? Why? When? How? Craft have to spend decades traveling between solar systems. They aren’t staffed by military people, they’re staffed with people who expect to spend almost their entire lives on a space ship, or spend decades cryogenically frozen. So something like Niven’s “Footfall” is possible. But that’s not a warship, that’s a colony ship that carries weapons. Of course, even “realistic” SF tends to include things like fusion rockets that can take you to Alpha Centauri in decades. Fusion power is certainly possible and doesn’t violate any laws of physics, and neither does squeezing your fusion generator into a tiny engine you can fit in a car. But turning that fusion reactor into a fusion rocket won’t get you to Alpha Centauri in decades, because you can’t carry enough reaction mass to keep that ship accelerating to a high fraction of light speed. You’ve only got so much delta-v with a rocket, and carrying more fuel doesn’t increase your delta-v very much because now you’ve got to use most of your rocket fuel to move around more rocket fuel. So it’s not building the space habitat that would be expensive. It’s the energy required to fling that to another star system. Of course, if you imagine cheap antigravity, then you don’t need no stinking rockets, and can just accelerate however hard you like, and since you’ve got antigravity you don’t even need to worry about squishing the crew. But even so it’s going to take a decade to reach even close stars. You’ve still got colony ships, not warships. If we allow FTL, then all bets are off. I mean, FTL is impossible, so complaining that our fictional FTL is too expensive or too cheap is missing the point. Since we know nothing about how this fictional device works, an FTL drive could be as cheap as an iPhone, or as expensive as the entire 400 year industrial output of planet Earth between 1850 and 2250. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-fiction-how-much-does-it-typically-cost-to-produce-an-average-space-faring-warship/587423.md?page=3)