# In Flanders Fields **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751 "2015-05-24T22:30:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/41 "2015-05-26T18:29:42Z")
My grandfather, who was on the Somme and who lived until I was 23, and my father who, obviously, knew his own father a great deal better than I did, would not, I believe, agree with the word “twaddle” here, nor yet that _all_ the nations involved were just making cynical grabs for wealth and territory. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/42 "2015-05-26T19:00:35Z")
Yeah, exactly which territory were the U.S., Great Britain, Canada and Australia making cynical grabs for? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/43 "2015-05-26T19:08:30Z")
Just the territory on the bottom of a balance sheet that showed how much the British and French would default on their loans if they lost their war. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/44 "2015-05-26T19:34:18Z")
I suggest anybody who thinks that any of the gerat nations involved were motivated by altruism go back and study your history more closely. Or, if you prefer, listen to the Hard Core History episodes dealing with the war. That war wasn’t the fault of any one nation, nor were any of the great powers involved planning on coming out of it without gain. We are still paying for Britain, France, et. al. and how they shared out Ottoman Turk territories among themselves, for example. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/45 "2015-05-26T19:41:16Z")
Kaiser Bill is right up there at the top for who started it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/46 "2015-05-26T19:41:38Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Don’t know where the fuck you get the cultural theft nonsense from. **Which bit of culture is being stolen?** Uh, the fucking poem. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/47 "2015-05-26T21:31:55Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Yeah, exactly which territory were the U.S., Great Britain, Canada and Australia making cynical grabs for? In the case of the UK, the Middle East, of course. And we’re still paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/48 "2015-05-26T21:48:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In the case of the UK, the Middle East, of course. And we’re still paying for it. I think this is somewhat confusing results with motives. The UK did not enter the Great War thinking ‘oh, I think I’d like a slice of the Middle East out of this, please’. For one, Turkey wasn’t even on the menu yet, as it were: they only joined in October, while the UK entered the War in August. Rather, they were thinking something along the lines of ‘we must support our allies on the continent, or Germany/Austria will become absolutely dominant there - plus, we can’t have Germany trampling helpless Belgium like that’. When the War was over, yes, there was an unseemly scramble for spoils - but the hope of spoils is not why the UK entered the War. More like it was fear of the results if they didn’t join. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/49 "2015-05-27T00:51:45Z")
The poem is one of those traditionally read at Anzac Day services in AUS. “Recessional” (Kipling, Great Britain) is another. The Australian War Memorial calls Fromelles (Flanders, 19-20 July) the[Worst night in Australian military history](https://www.awm.gov.au/military-event/E159/), and Flanders poppies are the symbol of Remembrance Day (November 11). We’ve always thought that we were in the war together with the Canadians and the English, and that we share our experience of the war with the Germans and the Turks. The attack on the “appropriation of a Canadian poem” feels like an attack on our sacred beliefs, and an attack on our war dead. I hope that wasn’t the intention. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/50 "2015-05-27T00:58:58Z")
Nicely put, **Malthus**. Here’s a good article on how the Dutch remember the U.S. role in WWII: [http://wapo.st/1cViyfa](http://wapo.st/1cViyfa) ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/51 "2015-05-27T01:25:17Z")
And there is Kipling’s poem, If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied. Especially noteworthy because Kipling pulled strings to get his son into the army–his poor eyesight made him medically unfit. He died shortly after arriving at the front. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/52 "2015-05-27T02:36:28Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Especially noteworthy because Kipling pulled strings to get his son into the army–his poor eyesight made him medically unfit. He died shortly after arriving at the front. Christ, I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/53 "2015-05-27T03:34:44Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > None of them had goals that weren’t, in the end, cynical grabs for wealth and territory. > > That poem is twaddle. > [@Colin Powell](#): > > The only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are. I respectfully disagree with your comment. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/54 "2015-05-27T13:07:54Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > We’ve always thought that we were in the war together with the Canadians and the English, and that we share our experience of the war with the Germans and the Turks. > > The attack on the “appropriation of a Canadian poem” feels like an attack on our sacred beliefs, and an attack on our war dead. I hope that wasn’t the intention. You also have this amazing one: > [@](#): > > Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives … You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours … You, the mothers who sent their sons from faraway countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well. > > -Kemal Attaturk Jesus wept! ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/55 "2015-05-27T13:59:08Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > You also have this amazing one: > > {awesome speech by Kemal Attaturk} > > Jesus wept! Never was the hatchet buried more thoroughly nor in a more statesmanlike fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/56 "2015-05-27T14:03:00Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > The poem is one of those traditionally read at Anzac Day services in AUS. “Recessional” (Kipling, Great Britain) is another. The Australian War Memorial calls Fromelles (Flanders, 19-20 July) the[Worst night in Australian military history](https://www.awm.gov.au/military-event/E159/), and Flanders poppies are the symbol of Remembrance Day (November 11). > > We’ve always thought that we were in the war together with the Canadians and the English, and that we share our experience of the war with the Germans and the Turks. > > The attack on the “appropriation of a Canadian poem” feels like an attack on our sacred beliefs, and an attack on our war dead. I hope that wasn’t the intention. Well, I’m a Canadian, and for what it’s worth I have no problems with anyone ‘appropriating’ that poem. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/57 "2015-05-27T14:29:28Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > And there is Kipling’s poem, > > If any question why we died, > Tell them, because our fathers lied. > > Especially noteworthy because Kipling pulled strings to get his son into the army–his poor eyesight made him medically unfit. He died shortly after arriving at the front. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Christ, I did not know that. His death led to one of Kipling’s best (and most haunting) poems, IMHO > [@](#): > > MY BOY JACK > > Have you news of my boy Jack?” > > - Not this tide.\* > “When d’you think that he’ll come back?” > - Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.\* > > “Has any one else had word of him?” > _Not this tide. > For what is sunk will hardly swim, > Not with this wind blowing, and this tide._ > > “Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?” > _None this tide, > Nor any tide, > Except he did not shame his kind — > Not even with that wind blowing, and that tide._ > > _Then hold your head up all the more, > This tide, > And every tide; > Because he was the son you bore, > And gave to that wind blowing and that tide!_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/58 "2015-05-27T17:00:19Z")
There was even a movie about it: [My Boy Jack (TV Movie 2007) - IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851430/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/59 "2015-05-27T18:19:13Z")
Thank you, OP, for posting this famous, beautiful and appropriate poem. > [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > My thoughts exactly! What kind of nation steals its inspiration from other nations’ war dead? > > Some sort of hybrid of stolen valour and disrespect for the fallen. This sentiment is as baffling as it is Pit-worthy. The British Empire lost over 1 million fighting men in The War to End All Wars, and over 2 million wounded. French losses were even higher. Three other countries had casualties exceeding five million. The sentiment that U.S. shouldn’t cherish a poem commemorating losses in a battle where U.S. didn’t participate is … XXXX [adjectives that come to mind might get me a Warning from the Mod]. I guess **Whiskey Dickens** also thinks it’s inappropriate for Americans to watch Shakespeare’s _King Henry V_, or to cherish the poem _Horatius at the Bridge_. :smack: And heaven help us if Americans admire the W.W. II bravery at Dunkirk, or lament the deaths at Hiroshima. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751/60 "2015-05-27T18:31:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > And heaven help us if Americans…lament the deaths at Hiroshima. I believe we get full credit for that. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-flanders-fields/720751.md?page=4)