# In Florida, 2000-style voter-registration shenanigans yet again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898 "2008-10-21T15:51:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/21 "2008-10-21T18:58:58Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > My driver’s license still has my old address on it, but my voter registration has my current address. So would this mean I couldn’t vote if I lived in Florida? I mean, I could show them my ID, but it would still have my old address on it… From what I saw of the database validation stuff, no, you’d be flagged since your info (name/address) didn’t match the other records. Note, too, in some cases, ID’s may or may not show lot numbers, apartment numbers etc. And any inconsistency would be disallowed. Jr. vs. Junior. hyphen or no. When I run criminal background checks, there’s any number of variations. And, again, IME, you’d not believe what can happen w/records - typos are only the first bit of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/22 "2008-10-21T19:01:04Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Then take a name like Miguel Gonzalez-Santiago. He might be in there under Miguel Gonsalez, Miguel Gonzales, Miguel Gonzales-Santiago, Miguel Gonsalez-Santiago, Miguel Gonzalezsantiago, Miguel Gonzales Santiago, Miguel Gonzalez Santiago, and so on. My first married name was horrible. This wasn’t it, but its the same syntax Christine Anne Martin van Truusen I have to walk people through finding me for that period. Did they file my surname as Martin van Truusen, or as van Truusen or as Truusen? Did they capitalize the Van or leave it lowercase, did they leave the e off the Anne or not? Did they misspell Truusen with its weird double vowels… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/23 "2008-10-21T19:02:48Z")
> [@wring](#): > > From what I saw of the database validation stuff, no, you’d be flagged since your info (name/address) didn’t match the other records. > > Note, too, in some cases, ID’s may or may not show lot numbers, apartment numbers etc. And any inconsistency would be disallowed. Jr. vs. Junior. hyphen or no. When I run criminal background checks, there’s any number of variations. And, again, IME, you’d not believe what can happen w/records - typos are only the first bit of it. OK, you know what? If you can truly show me that we’re talking about stuff on the level of: “John Smith Jr., 123 Main Street, Apt B2? I’m sorry, sir – your voter registrations says you’re John Smith Junior, and you live in apartment B-2, not B2.” If that’s what’s happening, I absolutely agree it’s wrong and should be changed. But it isn’t – is it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/24 "2008-10-21T19:05:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t like the law? Change the law. And, of course, the first step there is voting . . . wait . . . ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/25 "2008-10-21T19:07:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. > > But no one has really said how that might happen. If my name doesn’t match, I’m told to cast a provisional ballot – which I happily do. Then I go clear up the error, and _voila!_ My provisional ballot gets counted. > > Yawn. > > Don’t like the law? Change the law. It isn’t the law that’s bad, its the implementation of the law. The implementation should have allowed for “reasonable matches” but the applications written to compare databases didn’t do “reasonable matches.” If the SSN for Jane M Smith is 123-45-6789 and the SSN for Jane M. Smith is 123-45-6789, that’s a reasonable match. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/26 "2008-10-21T19:09:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, you know what? If you can truly show me that we’re talking about stuff on the level of: > > “John Smith Jr., 123 Main Street, Apt B2? I’m sorry, sir – your voter registrations says you’re John Smith Junior, and you live in apartment B-2, not B2.” > > If that’s what’s happening, I absolutely agree it’s wrong and should be changed. > > But it isn’t – is it? Quote from the OP, which I’m sure you read > [@](#): > > But the most severe threat to the franchise in Florida is the Voter Registration Verification Law, better known as the ‘No Match, No Vote’ standard. The Help America Vote Act (HAVA) mandated that states establish a statewide voter registration database, and then compare that data to state driver’s license databases as well as the Social Security Administration’s database. Florida law dictates that if a voter’s registration fails to exactly match those other records, that voter must provide proof of their identity to their local board of elections. If they fail to do so before the election, they will have to vote by provisional ballot (and if they want their ballot to be counted, they’ll still need to provide the board with proof of their identity within 48 hours). Although Florida’s law is, in the words of Tova Wang, “uniquely harsh,” Missouri, New Mexico, and Ohio–also battleground states where the election will be won or lost–as well as Georgia all have vague matching standards that could disenfranchise voters Exactly match means exactly match, doesn’t it? I know that I vary my own address quite often - sometimes I’ll include the “South” on the street address (it’s not necessary in order for mail or whatever to get to me), sometimes folks will demand “road” “street” or whatever, if they do, I"ll add “Road” but we don’t know if it’s shortened “Rd” or not. From what was presented in the OP, I’d be excluded as a non match, adn have to give up yet another day of work to prove my right to vote. and did you not read all of the things about the names and variations? Does it not trouble you that the system, far from a random distribution of non matches, seems to find significantly more errors in certain types of voters? (again from the OP) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/27 "2008-10-21T19:10:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, you know what? If you can truly show me that we’re talking about stuff on the level of: > > “John Smith Jr., 123 Main Street, Apt B2? I’m sorry, sir – your voter registrations says you’re John Smith Junior, and you live in apartment B-2, not B2.” > > If that’s what’s happening, I absolutely agree it’s wrong and should be changed. > > But it isn’t – is it? I’m not sure. Given that prominent officials in Montana failed the database test, I’m inclined to think that it is\*. As a programmer, I can tell you that the code for an absolute match would be a hell of a lot easier to write than an algorithm that allows for minor typoes. Check this link for a more thorough explanation of the process: [here](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Oct18.html). \*Cite available on request, but it’ll take me a while to dig it up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/28 "2008-10-21T19:16:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I’m not sure. Given that prominent officials in Montana failed the database test, I’m inclined to think that it is\*. As a programmer, I can tell you that the code for an absolute match would be a hell of a lot easier to write than an algorithm that allows for minor typoes. Check this link for a more thorough explanation of the process: [here](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Oct18.html). > \*Cite available on request, but it’ll take me a while to dig it up. If code exists that requires EXACT matches, it’s simply impossible to imagine that it’s not producing tens of thousands of mismatch reports across ALL demographics – I grant that foreign names may produce more than their share, but “Jr.” vs. “junior” and “St.” vs. “Street” will hit everyone. And that’s not happening, is it? I therefore conclude that this speculation is simply alarmist, not realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/29 "2008-10-21T19:17:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. > > But no one has really said how that might happen. If my name doesn’t match, I’m told to cast a provisional ballot – which I happily do. Then I go clear up the error, and _voila!_ My provisional ballot gets counted. Right. And if you’re poor, you can’t get the time off work, so your vote doesn’t get counted. And the Republican plan worked, because they suppressed the poor person’s vote and not yours! > [@](#): > > Yawn. > > Don’t like the law? Change the law. Apathetic yawning while your party suppresses the votes of poor people is exactly why people think you are a complete POS. Personally, I can’t believe you can look in a fucking mirror. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/30 "2008-10-21T19:23:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If code exists that requires EXACT matches, it’s simply impossible to imagine that it’s not producing tens of thousands of mismatch reports across ALL demographics – I grant that foreign names may produce more than their share, but “Jr.” vs. “junior” and “St.” vs. “Street” will hit everyone. > > And that’s not happening, is it? I therefore conclude that this speculation is simply alarmist, not realistic. Again, you’re ignoring **where/when** it appears to be happening, ie that it’s not randomly across Florida, but those w/Democratic registrations, hispanic names etc. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/31 "2008-10-21T19:24:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If code exists that requires EXACT matches, it’s simply impossible to imagine that it’s not producing tens of thousands of mismatch reports across ALL demographics – I grant that foreign names may produce more than their share, but “Jr.” vs. “junior” and “St.” vs. “Street” will hit everyone. > > And that’s not happening, is it? I therefore conclude that this speculation is simply alarmist, not realistic. This is the funniest thing I have ever read. God you are a fucking tool. So if we can’t provide a cite that it is happening, you conclude that efforts to stop it are alarmist and not realistic. Yet you have not been able to provide a single example of someone committing voter fraud, but you strongly approve of extreme measures being taken to stop it. And it doesn’t matter if it flags lots of people across all demographics. All that matters is if there is someone there to challenge the voter based on it. And the dirtbags challenging people don’t go to your precinct, or mine, to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/32 "2008-10-21T19:27:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If code exists that requires EXACT matches, it’s simply impossible to imagine that it’s not producing tens of thousands of mismatch reports across ALL demographics – I grant that foreign names may produce more than their share, but “Jr.” vs. “junior” and “St.” vs. “Street” will hit everyone. It **is** happening, according to the cite in the OP: mismatches are happening across [edit: tens] of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/33 "2008-10-21T19:30:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, well, I’ve seen lots of purported “debunkings” of Michael Moore’s documentaries on the SDMB, but Greg Palast, AFAIK, has never been caught in, nor even seriously accused of, any significant error of fact, here or anywhere else. In my view, the problem with Palast is not the facts he reports, but the inferences he draws with those facts. For example, many people reading this thread have claimed “exact match” means something outrageously onerous, and nothing in Palast’s writings suggests this is not so. But it isn’t so. The actual law says that voter registration applicants who have a Florida driver’s license, a Florida ID card, or a social security number must place their driver’s license number, ID card number, or (if they have neither) the last four digits of their social security number on their voter registration applications. (See § 97.053(5)(a)5., Fla. Stat. (2007); cf. 42 U.S.C. § 15483(a)(5)(A)(i).) Election officials then attempt to verify the authenticity of the number provided by the applicant through computerized, and, if necessary, individual review of official state and federal databases. (See § 97.053(6), Fla. Stat. (2007); cf. 42 U.S.C. § 15483(a)(5)(B).) Finally, Section 97.053(6), Florida Statutes requires the applicants whose numbers could not be verified to respond to a notice letter by showing their driver’s license, identification card, or Social Security card to election officials, either in person or by providing a copy of the card by mail, facsimile, or e-mail. Cf. 42 U.S.C. §15483(a)(5)(A)(iii). A little different than the picture you all were painting here, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/34 "2008-10-21T19:33:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yawn. > > Don’t like the law? Change the law. Alternatively, you can take it to the Supreme Court [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/17/AR2008101703205.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/17/AR2008101703205.html) (registration required) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/35 "2008-10-21T19:33:11Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > It **is** happening, according to the cite in the OP: mismatches are happening across [edit: tens] of thousands of people. How can this be? As you see from the actual laws n’ stuff I quote above, we’re not talking hyper-technical variations of name or address: we’re talking driver’s license number, ID card number, or last four of the SSN. So you tell me – what’s happening that’s making those pieces of info mismatch on tens of thousands of people, that they can’t clear up by **mailing a copy of their card** in?? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/36 "2008-10-21T19:37:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, the problem with Palast is not the facts he reports, but the inferences he draws with those facts. > > For example, many people reading this thread have claimed “exact match” means something outrageously onerous, and nothing in Palast’s writings suggests this is not so. > > But it isn’t so. > > The actual law says that voter registration applicants who have a Florida driver’s license, a Florida ID card, or a social security number must place their driver’s license number, ID card number, or (if they have neither) the last four digits of their social security number on their voter registration applications. (See § 97.053(5)(a)5., Fla. Stat. (2007); cf. 42 U.S.C. § 15483(a)(5)(A)(i).) > > Election officials then attempt to verify the authenticity of the number provided by the applicant through computerized, and, if necessary, individual review of official state and federal databases. (See § 97.053(6), Fla. Stat. (2007); cf. 42 U.S.C. § 15483(a)(5)(B).) > > Finally, Section 97.053(6), Florida Statutes requires the applicants whose numbers could not be verified to respond to a notice letter by showing their driver’s license, identification card, or Social Security card to election officials, either in person or by providing a copy of the card by mail, facsimile, or e-mail. Cf. 42 U.S.C. §15483(a)(5)(A)(iii). > > A little different than the picture you all were painting here, eh? The implementation has often been exact match, even if that hasn’t been the law. As I said, the law itself may not be bad, the implementation of the law in some states (or election districts) has sucked. The law says “individual review” but individual review isn’t a practical solution or hasn’t always been practically implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/37 "2008-10-21T19:41:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How can this be? It can be, because a) a letter is sent out in English, which amounts to a de facto English literacy requirement: if you can’t read or respond to our challenge of your voter registration, too bad; and b) because according to **Dangerosa** , people are taking ‘exact match’ farther than the law intended. Do you disagree that the way the law is enforced disproportionately hurts black and Hispanic voters? Does that not suggest something might possibly be amiss and worthy of further investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/38 "2008-10-21T19:42:49Z")
For what it’s worth, I just went through training to be a poll worker in Ross County, Ohio. I was amazed at the forms of identification which are allowed for regular machine or paper voting. A bank statement or utility bill from the past year which match the name and address on the database will suffice. A copy of any government check with your name and address on it will do. You essentially have to show up with a Blockbuster card or less to be forced to vote provisional, as long as you are at the right precinct. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/39 "2008-10-21T19:43:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Just having recently watched the movie _Recount_, I’m inclined to tell anyone who wants to dismiss this matter as unimportant to go fuck themselves. I agree. Iwill just have to leave it at that because my feelings on this issue, even in the Pit, would probably get me banned. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898/40 "2008-10-21T19:48:21Z")
No comprehensive Republican plans to block voters? Really? How about _Ohio Republican Party v. Brunner,_ which was recently overturned by the Supreme Court? As is commented [here](http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20081021.html): > [@](#): > > Faster than you can say “Bush v. Gore,” the Supreme Court reversed the Sixth Circuit’s en banc decision. It held that the legal standard governing who can sue to enforce statutes is simply too demanding for the plaintiffs to have established a likelihood of success on the merits. It was probable, instead, that they lacked the right to bring the case in the first place. As a consequence, the federal court suit was dismissed. Thus, it now appears that Secretary Brunner’s decision not to flag discrepancies between voter registrations and motor vehicle records for county election officials will stand. > > Had the Supreme Court not reversed the en banc Sixth Circuit ruling, thousands of newly registered Ohio voters might have been purged from the rolls. Because the Democrats have registered more new Ohio voters than have the Republicans, last week’s ruling was no doubt welcome news to the Obama campaign and a disappointment to the McCain campaign. Should Senator Obama capture Ohio by a razor-thin margin, and should Ohio prove decisive in the Electoral College race, he will have the Supreme Court to thank on Inauguration Day. The Republicans were attempting to force SoS Brunner to verify over 600,000 new registrations in time for election day, and challenging new rules that allow for same day registration/early voting up to October 6. Yeah, no way they were trying to get those new voters challenged off the rolls, and no way were they motivated by the fact that the overwhelming percentage of new registered voters are Democrats. Not to mention the fact that since the registrations and votes were same day, there’s pretty much NO WAY for anyone to commit voter fraud–you have a person, that person’s ID and their vote all at once at the counter. What, exactly, are they protesting here? Not blatant enough for you? How about [“caging” tactics](http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/20/mi-republicans-admit-to-illegal-foreclosure-scheme-surrender-to-democrats/) in Michigan? [bolding mine] > [@](#): > > An agreement announced today by Obama for America, the Republican National Committee, the Democratic National Committee, the Michigan Republican Party, the Michigan Democratic Party, the Macomb County Republican Party, the Macomb County Democratic Party, and plaintiffs Duane Maletski, Sharon Lopez, and Frances M. Zick protects the voting rights of foreclosure victims. **The settlement acknowledges the existence of an illegal scheme by the Republicans to use mortgage foreclosure lists to deny foreclosure victims their right to vote. This settlement has the force of law behind it and ensures that Republicans cannot disenfranchise families facing foreclosure.** Is it just me, or is the effort to handwave all this shit away getting vigorous enough to cause off-season hurricanes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-florida-2000-style-voter-registration-shenanigans-yet-again/468898.md?page=3)