# In general, most rock and roll musicians are minimally educated. True or False? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342 "2011-05-01T02:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/1 "2011-05-01T02:09:30Z")
This list of suggestions on how to successfully manage rock band asserts that most rock and roll musicians are fairly poorly educated. Obviously there are exceptions to the norm, but in general is this assertion correct or not? [How to run a rock bandDoc McGhee, the force behind Mötley Crüe and Kiss, offers his 10 golden rules](http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2001/dec/07/artsfeatures1) > [@](#): > > 1. Learn to say no > > You have to remember that 90% of rock stars have less than a high school education. You take someone who maybe isn’t the brightest guy in the world and put them onstage. They wave their hand in one direction and 20,000 people wave their hand in the same direction and they start to feel power. When they start to feel power, they will start to make demands. It’s your job to ensure those demands are realistic. Of course, there are some privileges associated with being famous: Peter Criss from Kiss used to get a little antsy if he didn’t get the right kind of potato chips backstage. They had to be Ruffles. That’s harmless, but let them get everything they want and you end up dealing with monsters. They want to go to Disneyland, but they don’t want Mickey Mouse to be walking around when they get there. You have to say no to that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/2 "2011-05-01T02:54:46Z")
Anecdotally it seems most rock stars are the kids who were told they’d never amount to anything, who dropped out of school to play guitar and work at Taco Bell to keep themselves in weed, so it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that was right ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/3 "2011-05-01T02:56:43Z")
Well I have no idea about every rockstar, but some are well educated. Greg Graffin of “Bad Religion,” has a PhD in zoology from Cornell. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/4 "2011-05-01T02:58:00Z")
First, most people period are minimally educated. Second, let’s test the claim that 90% of rock stars have less than a high school education. Here are a bunch of rock stars (just off the top of my head) and their education: Paul McCartney (The Beatles): High school dropout? Mick Jagger (The Rolling Stones): High school graduate Buddy Holly: High school graduate? John Phillips (The Mamas and the Papas): College dropout Little Richard: High school dropout? Brian Wilson (The Beach Boys): High school graduate? Linda Ronstadt: High school graduate? Frank Zappa (The Mothers of Invention): College dropout James Taylor: High school dropout Bruce Springsteen: College dropout Kurt Cobain (Nirvana): High school dropout Liam Gallagher (Oasis): High school dropout Jack White (The White Stripes): High school graduate Chris Martin (Coldplay): College graduate If these are anything typical of rock stars, it’s not true that 90% of them are high school dropouts. The average one is a high school graduate, and some of them went to college. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/5 "2011-05-01T03:02:07Z")
I strongly suspect confirmation bias - “Rock Star has quiet night in with a cuppa, reads genre novel” is unlikely to make many headlines. ---
**Author:** ![bahia\_hombre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@bahia\_hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahia_hombre)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/6 "2011-05-01T03:09:09Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Well I have no idea about every rockstar, but some are well educated. Greg Graffin of “Bad Religion,” has a PhD in zoology from Cornell. Tom Scholz of “Boston”…Masters in Mechanical Engineering from MIT, built his own recording studio [/exceptions-to-the-norm] ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/7 "2011-05-01T03:12:41Z")
> [@bahia\_hombre](#): > > Tom Scholz of “Boston”…Masters in Mechanical Engineering from MIT, built his own recording studio [/exceptions-to-the-norm] Another: Brian May of Queen (PhD in Astrophysics). That said, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that many, if not most, rock stars are high-school graduates, at best. OTOH, that might just be a stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/8 "2011-05-01T03:12:48Z")
I question the premise. Many musicians may not have a lot of formal schooling but that doesn’t automatically equal dumb. Some of them have done quite well in academic pursuits. They are engaged in an extremely competitive field where they need to start young and work really hard. That results in a type of education that most people don’t have. You could say the same thing about many actors but there are some that are quite academically accomplished. Doc McGhee is coming across as the dumb one in his style of comments and the conclusions. His comment about potato chips is telling. Rock stars after put some bizarre and highly specific demand in their contracts. It isn’t because all of them think like 4 year olds. It is a test to make sure that everyone is reading and following the contracts very closely. In other fields: 1. Bill Gates - college drop out 2. Mark Zuckerberg - college dropout 3. Michael Dell - college dropout. 4. Various news anchors - high school and college dropouts. Idiots, the whole lot of them. Then again, a few of them really are truly stupid except for that one talent. Good for them, they found a way to succeed despite their limitations. What does all this mean? I don’t know except formal schooling doesn’t equal intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/9 "2011-05-01T03:48:22Z")
Agreed am I that formal education is not necessarily related directly to intelligence. But – and I’m saying this with all respect, since most of my time is spent playing and teaching rock and roll keyboards, and the people who created the best of this music are some of the most solid improvisers with astonishing technical control and melodic inventiveness. (I’m talking about Johnnie Johnson, Ian Stewart, Nicky Hopkins, Billy Preston, Chuck Leavell, Jerry Lee, Little Richard, Huey Smith, and everybody) – in my experience, most rock performers are not even educated about _music_, let alone world civ or organic chemistry. Most rock musicians can’t tell you what chords they’re playing beyond maybe giving some simple triad names. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems pretty inarguable that it’s not really a music about theory or education, but going all out, from an early age. Sounds corny, but it’s my view. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/10 "2011-05-01T04:13:12Z")
Sorry for the 2x post, but a distinction should probably be made between various kinds of pop (twee rock, math rock, all of the quirky little pop groups who write songs not about fucking and fighting), prog rock, and what I think of as rock and roll, which is the balls out type people from Johnnie Johnson to Nashville Pussy have made. There are plenty of heavy theory heads in all kinds of pop and art rock, and obviously among those doing the real stuff, too. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/11 "2011-05-01T04:28:12Z")
Dexter Holland, of The Offspring, has his BS and MS in Molecular Biology, and was a PhD candidate. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/12 "2011-05-01T04:56:11Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Paul McCartney (The Beatles): High school dropout? > Mick Jagger (The Rolling Stones): High school graduate McCartney was not a high school dropout. He not only passed about 6 O Levels, but also at least one A Level, which means that he would have stayed on at school to 18, past the (then) standard school leaving age of 16. That is a well above average high school career for the time, especially for a working/lower-middle class boy like Paul. According to [this page](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081106061258AAYyg34) (OK, it is Yahoo Answers:(, but I already knew about the O Levels, so I’m inclined to trust her) he had an offer to enter teaching college, but turned that down to work with the Beatles. I think Paul was the only Beatle with either O or A levels (but not having passed those exams does not equate to “dropout” - the term does not really have a meaning in the British educational system). Maybe John Lennon’s and George Harrison’s could be construed as roughly equivalent to that of what would be called a “dropout” in America, but by no stretch of the imagination does this apply to Paul. (I don’t know about Ringo.) Mick Jagger not only finished high school, he went on to study at one of Britain’s most prestigious universities, the London School of Economics. He dropped out of _there_ to play with the Stones. Thus, to be consistent with the rest of your classification, he should be listed as “college dropout”, not “high school graduate.” Frankly, since you got the first two items (and probably the two most famous individuals) on your list wrong. I have zero confidence in the rest of your assertions on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/13 "2011-05-01T06:22:59Z")
Since a lot of bands started out as college bands (R.E.M., Radiohead, Better Than Ezra, and Coldplay to name a few) a fair number of musicians must make it through high school at minimum. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/14 "2011-05-01T09:08:00Z")
Nitpick with **NJTT** school leaving age at that time was 15, not 16. That was normal school leaving age, it certainly was not drop out.By taking his O(rdinary) and A(dvanced) levels he actually stayed on. I will also chip in here to point out that when McCartney was at school, most folk of his class would not have stayed for their O-Levels. Back when he left school, getting 6 O-Levels was not all that common, in fact for many it was something of an accomplishment to obtain 4 O-Levels, he would certainly have been a candidate for university, had he chosen this route. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/15 "2011-05-01T09:37:20Z")
njtt writes: \> Frankly, since you got the first two items (and probably the two most famous \> individuals) on your list wrong. I have zero confidence in the rest of your \> assertions on this topic. Since you know more about this than the rest of us, why don’t you research the rest of the list and tell us what the educational accomplishments of the entire list are? It’s great when someone can tell us more about a subject than we’ve known before. That’s what the SDMB is about, fighting ignorance. It’s not so great when someone tells us that we’re stupid and don’t deserve to know anything else, since obviously anyone who hasn’t already learned those facts is too worthless to learn anything new. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/16 "2011-05-01T10:14:01Z")
I don’t care enough gather statistically significant data, but I seemed to remember the not notably intellectual [Butthole Surfers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butthole_Surfers#Formation_.281976.E2.80.931981.29) had some college. In fact, they: > [@](#): > > … formed at Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas during the late 1970s, when students Gibson “Gibby” Haynes, and Paul Leary Walthall (later just Paul Leary) met for the first time. Though it was their overall strangeness and shared taste in non-mainstream music that caused them to become friends, both appeared to be headed for very conventional careers. Haynes, as captain of Trinity’s basketball team, as well as the school’s “Accountant of the Year”, soon graduated to a position with a respected Texas accounting firm, while Leary remained in college working on his MBA degree. > > In 1981, Haynes and Leary published the magazine Strange V.D., which featured photos of abnormal medical ailments, coupled with fictitious, humorous explanations for the diseases. After being caught with one of these pictures at work, Haynes left the accounting firm and moved to Southern California. Leary, at the time one semester shy of his degree, dropped out of college and followed Haynes. After a brief period spent selling homemade clothes and linens emblazoned with Lee Harvey Oswald’s image, the pair returned to San Antonio, and launched the band that would eventually become the Butthole Surfers. [The University of North Texas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Texas_State#Notable_alumni_and_professors) has always had a strong musical program. Alumni include Roy Orbison, Pat Boone, Meat Loaf, Don Henley & Norah Jones. Plus Brave Combo! ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/17 "2011-05-01T11:47:29Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Another: Brian May of Queen (PhD in Astrophysics). The other three members of Queen also have college degrees. Freddie Mercury-Art and Graphic Design Roger Taylor-Biology John Deacon-Electronics ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/18 "2011-05-01T14:32:03Z")
My little brother is in a couple of bands, and he has, I believe, two or three years of college under his belt. He dropped out because he had mad computer skilz in the 80s, and it was far more profitable to make the money while he could. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/19 "2011-05-01T18:10:55Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Another: Brian May of Queen (PhD in Astrophysics). The remaining members of Queen all had at least college degrees as well: Deacon has a First Class Honours Degree in electronics, Mercury had a Diploma in Art and Graphic Design, and Taylor has a Biology Degree. Milo Aukerman of the Descendants has a PhD in biochemistry. ETA: Beaten to the punch on Queen, apparently by several hours. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342/20 "2011-05-02T01:45:55Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Mick Jagger not only finished high school, he went on to study at one of Britain’s most prestigious universities, the London School of Economics. He dropped out of _there_ to play with the Stones. Mick’s partner in crime summed up the issue nicely when he said, > [@](#): > > “We [Keef and Mick] both knew we were in a process of learning, and it was something you wanted to learn and\*\*\* it was ten times better than schoo\*l\*\*.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-general-most-rock-and-roll-musicians-are-minimally-educated-true-or-false/580342.md?page=2)