# In Glengarry Glen Ross, what exactly are the salesmen selling? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998 "2012-03-07T01:53:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/81 "2012-03-18T14:03:46Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > It’s like, you can give them shit on a stick to sell, and they can overcome that. But if you give them a “cold” “deadbeat” lead that Mitch & Murray “got out of the phone book”, they can’t overcome that. Right. This explains the market for modern art. Shit on a stick is cheap to produce. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/82 "2012-03-18T14:08:17Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > There is one scene that I believe is the moral heart of the story. (Who am I kidding, that story has no heart! It’s the moral spleen.) It’s when Levene is describing the sale to Roma. He says “It was great. It was so fucking great. It was like they wilted all at once.”… The glee in his voice as he describes the life seeping out from the poor couple he thinks he sold. “They both kind of imperceptibly slumped.” I adore that movie - and I never thought of that scene that way before. Fascinating. I reached the same conclusion about Levene through other means. It was clear to me that he had a choice. More than the other characters. He stooped the lowest in taking the easiest way out. I loved the way Roma chews his gum in the above scene - it’s a money shot, with clothes on. Pacino’s best work. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/83 "2012-03-19T14:23:49Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > There is one scene that I believe is the moral heart of the story. (Who am I kidding, that story has no heart! It’s the moral spleen.) It’s when Levene is describing the sale to Roma. He says “It was great. It was so fucking great. It was like they wilted all at once.” > > That’s when you realize that the man is a fucking vampire. Up until this point, you convinced yourself, despite the evidence, that he did this job because he was desperate. His daughter is in the hospital! He has to make money, and this is the way he knows how. > > But no. He’s desperate for his fix, and he’s the worst, the most immoral of the bunch. Roma, he’s a tactician, and he likes outwitting the other guy. Baldwin’s character, he likes the power and sense of domination he gets from fucking over the little guy. They’re slimy, they’re scum, but Levene is worse. His kick isn’t from winning or even from defeating someone, it’s from the other guy losing, and suffering for it. The glee in his voice as he describes the life seeping out from the poor couple he thinks he sold. “They both kind of imperceptibly slumped.” > > He’s fucking evil and you feel like shit for ever rooting for him, even a little. It’s a horrible, slimy feeling, but it’s absolutely amazing and beautiful the way Mamet and Lemon have conspired to create that feeling. I wouldn’t have said vampire, though I get what you’re saying. Rather, I thought Shelley was like a teenage jock who’s just smooth-talked his way into a virginal girl’s pants, and has raced back to the locker room to tell the other guys all about it. All of the salesmen regard their ability to sell as a test of their virility. A would-be stud who’s been in a slump may be pathetic, but it doesn’t follow that he’ a nice guy or that he’s worthy of our sympathy. Shelley was ALWAYS as big a rat as any of the other guys. As long as he was in a sales slump, we didn’t see that. But the moment he THINKS he’s made a sale, his true self surfaces, if only for a few minutes. And he’s ugly enough in those few minutes to make us understand why Williamson hated him, and enjoyed jerking him around. ALL of the salesmen have treated Williamson as if he’s not a REAL man. To them, “office manager” is a womanly job, and they look down on him for doing that job. To them, if he were a REAL man, he’d be out like them, trying to seduce and destroy clients the way they once tried to seduce and destroy girls. The Shelley we see in Act 2 is probably the Shelley that John Williamson USED to see all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/84 "2012-03-19T16:24:14Z")
The movie drips with sexual subtext. When Lingk says, “My wife says I have to get our money back”, he might as well be standing there with his cut-off dick in his hands. One comment I still don’t understand: Baldwin, “A man doesn’t walk on the lot unless he wants to buy.” Nobody in this movie walks on any lots. The salesmen go out to the customers, and I can’t imagine them inviting the customers to walk anywhere. Also I don’t quite get the sales contest. Is it “Sell X and get the Cadillac”, or do you have to come in first among the four salesmen? Roma is happy when Levine makes a sale, and Levine tries to help Roma con Lingk, so they don’t seem to be competing with each other which implies the latter. But then at one point Aaronow talks about firing “the bottom two guys on the board”. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/85 "2012-03-19T17:05:00Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I wouldn’t have said vampire, though I get what you’re saying. > > Rather, I thought Shelley was like a teenage jock who’s just smooth-talked his way into a virginal girl’s pants, and has raced back to the locker room to tell the other guys all about it. > > All of the salesmen regard their ability to sell as a test of their virility. A would-be stud who’s been in a slump may be pathetic, but it doesn’t follow that he’ a nice guy or that he’s worthy of our sympathy. > > Shelley was ALWAYS as big a rat as any of the other guys. As long as he was in a sales slump, we didn’t see that. But the moment he THINKS he’s made a sale, his true self surfaces, if only for a few minutes. > > And he’s ugly enough in those few minutes to make us understand why Williamson hated him, and enjoyed jerking him around. ALL of the salesmen have treated Williamson as if he’s not a REAL man. To them, “office manager” is a womanly job, and they look down on him for doing that job. To them, if he were a REAL man, he’d be out like them, trying to seduce and destroy clients the way they once tried to seduce and destroy girls. > > The Shelley we see in Act 2 is probably the Shelley that John Williamson USED to see all the time. I agree with everything you said, except that a high school rake doesn’t typically destroy girls. Even in a puritanical 50’s double-standard ethos, most guys don’t set out to destroy a girl’s reputation or virtue. That’s just a side effect of getting laid. But not for Levene. When the other guys are bragging about getting laid, he’s bragging about slipping the girl a roofie. The fact that he got laid out of it is secondary. It’s the act of _rape_ that excites him. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/86 "2012-03-19T18:05:26Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > One comment I still don’t understand: Baldwin, “A man doesn’t walk on the lot unless he wants to buy.” Nobody in this movie walks on any lots. The salesmen go out to the customers, and I can’t imagine them inviting the customers to walk anywhere. Just a car sales metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/87 "2012-03-19T18:23:09Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Just a car sales metaphor. Oh. I guess that makes sense. Also I see I messed up my comment above–since the salesmen _aren’t_ competing with each other, the contest seems to be one in which all four could win a Cadillac if they sold enough. But then Aaronow contradicts this. Of course Aaronow is kind of dumb (and a lousy salesman) so maybe he doesn’t get it. I’ve always liked to imagine the conversation that ensued between Mitch & Murray and Jerry Graff, trafficker in stolen leads. I’m imagining an f-bomb or fifty. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/88 "2012-03-19T18:35:17Z")
It’s the first place salesman only who gets the car. Roma can afford to be happy for Levene because Roma’s doing well and has a huge lead on the rest. Levene probably helps Roma out of a sense of professional fidelity and because you wouldn’t want a situation where each guy is trying to screw over the other guy’s sales out of retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/89 "2012-03-19T20:05:41Z")
I read this thread, and it makes me think of[another Dope thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=645285) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/90 "2012-03-19T21:15:20Z")
I watched this movie again since/because of reading this thread, and the instant bullshit rapport that Levene and Roma go into when Lingk enters was priceless. I think Roma means every word of flattery that he gives Levene afterwards because they play off each other as if rehearsed. Roma clutching at straws and making non-sequitur “throw out some words and hopefully some will work” scene as he’s trying to keep Lingk tied to the deal was some of Pacino’s best acting ever. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/91 "2012-03-19T21:21:46Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Roma clutching at straws and making non-sequitur “throw out some words and hopefully some will work” scene as he’s trying to keep Lingk tied to the deal was some of Pacino’s best acting ever. Remember, he served on the Attorney General’s task force that drew up those guidelines! And you only count business days. That’s important. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/92 "2012-03-19T23:50:47Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Remember, he served on the Attorney General’s task force that drew up those guidelines! > > And you only count business days. That’s important. ## You, you… I’m guessing you go out to eat a lot don’t you? Four, five star restaurants, but let me tell you, this guy’s wife, she can _cook_! I wonder why somebody like Levene doesn’t just get a job with a car lot or a regular realty. He’s definitely got some talent, and you’d think he’d do well in a mostly legit job, and he certainly wouldn’t be making less money than the none he’s brought in lately. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/93 "2012-03-20T00:19:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, he _almost_ killed James Bond, but he kept fucking it up! Nah, he just dreamed that, along with everything else since he snapped in Jack Lint’s chair. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/94 "2012-03-20T00:23:18Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I wonder why somebody like Levene doesn’t just get a job with a car lot or a regular realty. He’s definitely got some talent, and you’d think he’d do well in a mostly legit job, and he certainly wouldn’t be making less money than the none he’s brought in lately. Bad luck, that’s all it is. I pray in your life you will never find it runs in streaks; that’s what it does, that’s all it’s doing, streaks. I pray it misses you. That’s all I want to say … The premium leads, yes, I know what they cost, John, because I, I generated the dollar revenue sufficient to buy them … I’ll tell you why I’m out: I’m out, you’re giving me toilet paper, John. ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/95 "2012-03-20T01:00:06Z")
At least the “suckers” in the movie ended up with some real estate, albeit worthless. One of the first big cases I handled as a probation officer had to do with a team of con men who were selling land in California’s Antelope Valley and taking the elderly for their life’s savings. Unfortunately for these elderly folks, the con men did not actually have title to the land they were selling. (Some of the salesmen did not even know of this little fact.) Just about everybody ended up going to prison. The guy who set up the con got 18 consecutive 15 year prison terms…and within a month of arriving in prison was appointed the Chaplain’s Assistant and had run of the place. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/96 "2012-03-20T22:14:51Z")
> [@gunnergoz](#): > > At least the “suckers” in the movie ended up with some real estate, albeit worthless. One of the first big cases I handled as a probation officer had to do with a team of con men who were selling land in California’s Antelope Valley and taking the elderly for their life’s savings. Unfortunately for these elderly folks, the con men did not actually have title to the land they were selling. (Some of the salesmen did not even know of this little fact.) Just about everybody ended up going to prison. The guy who set up the con got 18 consecutive 15 year prison terms…and within a month of arriving in prison was appointed the Chaplain’s Assistant and had run of the place. I think when Levene got out of jail he joined Roma at Madoff & Associates. (Of course there they really could say that some people did great.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/97 "2012-03-21T02:59:05Z")
How about Baldwin on [pledging to NPR](http://www.wnyc.org/support/baldwin/)? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/98 "2012-03-21T03:47:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How about Baldwin on [pledging to NPR](http://www.wnyc.org/support/baldwin/)? Genius! ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/99 "2012-03-21T09:47:08Z")
I’ve been in real estate sales 25 years and never seen anything (locally) approximating the GGGR scenario other than some time share sales in the 80’s. The flip side of the worthless swamp land scenario is that there were a number of real estate developments in this area in the 60’s - 70’s (the eastern shore of MD) where lots were sold by salesmen taking people out per the GGGR example, but those lots became part of a large well developed community (Ocean Pines MD in this case) and worth far, far more than the purchase price. The unbelievable thing about the GGGR example is that there would be this super salesperson that no one has ever heard of. If he was actually that much of a producer he be talked about all the time, and everyone in local real estate sales would know exactly who he was. The other thing that really does not accord with real world real estate is the notion of the leads as being almost sure sales. I don’t care how good your leads are, at best a minute fraction of all leads will ever generate sales. Salespeople willing to destroy themselves for the crap shoot involved in a packet of leads (even good leads) is not (IMO) any way realistic. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998/100 "2012-03-21T15:12:08Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I’ve been in real estate sales 25 years and never seen anything (locally) approximating the GGGR scenario other than some time share sales in the 80’s. The flip side of the worthless swamp land scenario is that there were a number of real estate developments in this area in the 60’s - 70’s (the eastern shore of MD) where lots were sold by salesmen taking people out per the GGGR example, but those lots became part of a large well developed community (Ocean Pines MD in this case) and worth far, far more than the purchase price. Scammers have moved to the Internet now. Within the movie we don’t know, anyway. For all we know the Glen Ross development will end up being insanely valuable. It’s not relevant; what matters is these guys have to sell lots on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-glengarry-glen-ross-what-exactly-are-the-salesmen-selling/614998.md?page=6)