# In God We Trust (all others pay cash) - Second Circuit upholds phrase on money **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557 "2014-05-29T13:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/201 "2014-06-01T16:45:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You and the IGWT brigade are trying very hard to have it both ways, **Bricker**. It’s religiously important enough to the majority religions that it’s next to impossible to remove it, and yet it’s supposedly an empty phrase that contains nothing but secular symbolism. Which is it? Because it can’t be both. Not really. It can easily be removed by an act of Congress. Just not by the courts. The question is not whether it CAN be removed, but whether it MUST it be removed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/202 "2014-06-01T16:48:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. It can easily be removed by an act of Congress. Just not by the courts. > > The question is not whether it CAN be removed, but whether it MUST it be removed. No, I think the real question is why _can’t_ it be removed…and at least a partial answer to that can be found when you take stock of those who fight it’s removal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/203 "2014-06-01T17:06:51Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You mean like Catholic Mass, reciting the Rosary or saying the Pledge of Allegiance every day? No, no, and yes. And arguably there should be an asterisk on the second answer. While it’s true that Catholic Mass is very similar from week to week, it’s by no means identical. There is a Liturgy of the Word, in which different Scriptural readings are given, and a homily, even more unique to each celebrant. The Rosary deserves an asterisk because it undoubtedly does, for some people, become a mantra, and thereby loses meaning. It shouldn’t – this is why the mysteries of the Rosary change daily – the Sorrowful Mysteries on Tuesdays and Fridays, for example, and Saint John Paul II’s introduction of the Luminous Mysteries for Thursdays are examples of measures taken to avoid that danger. But the Pledge certainly falls into that category. No effort is taken, as a rule, to stop and think about what is being said, or to elevate the words above a string of continually repeated syllables. More’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/204 "2014-06-01T17:11:41Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Again, it’s quite amusing to me to watch devout Christians argue so vehemently for the total obsolescence of their faith just so they can stick it on money. If it’s lost “any significant religious content”, then you’re acknowledging that it’s an empty phrase that means nothing. And if that’s the case, then why is that empty phrase so hotly defended every time the suggestion is made to remove it? > > You and the IGWT brigade are trying very hard to have it both ways, **Bricker**. It’s religiously important enough to the majority religions that it’s next to impossible to remove it, and yet it’s supposedly an empty phrase that contains nothing but secular symbolism. Which is it? Because it can’t be both. I think you’re mistaken. I say the Second Circuit decided correctly because inclusion of the phrase is not unconstitutional. That is not hotly defending the phrase – that is hotly defending the proper interpretation of the Constitution. If you were to argue that Congress should act to remove the phrase, I would only ask that we craft something suitably solemn, historically accurate, or suitably aspiration all to replace it. It’s not an “empty” phrase. It’s empty of religious endorsement, yes, but not of solemn historical significance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/205 "2014-06-01T17:16:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you were to argue that Congress should act to remove the phrase, I would only ask that we craft something suitably solemn, historically accurate, or suitably aspiration all to replace it. We already did. _E Pluribus Unum_-“Out of many, one”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/206 "2014-06-01T17:37:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. Jews are not Christians. Period. Full stop. If you want to lump them together as “Judeo-Christians” - fine. Lump them together as “monotheists” - fine too. But Jews are not Christians and any time you say “non-Christians”, Jews qualify. Fair enough. My point was merely that Jews would not have any claim to exclusion from whatever group is represented by “in God we trust.” I award you 10 nitbucks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/207 "2014-06-01T18:09:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fair enough. My point was merely that Jews would not have any claim to exclusion from whatever group is represented by “in God we trust.” I award you 10 nitbucks. If, as some have claimed in this thread, “God” refers to “The Christian God”, then they do. Christians like to say they worship the same God as Jews, but Jews don’t worship Jesus and they don’t worship The Holy Ghost. I can see where Muslims and Jews can claim to worship the same God, but the Christian God is not the Jewish God- He’s got too much baggage what with His two conjoined twins. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/208 "2014-06-01T18:38:01Z")
Oh, I dunno. The Christians who like to go around putting religious mottoes on our money seem to be much more interested in the God of the Old Testament than the New. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/209 "2014-06-01T18:44:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We already did. > _E Pluribus Unum_-“Out of many, one”. Sure, that’s an excellent example. My only slight gripe would be that the Latin makes it impenetrable to an unfortunately large minority of the population, but that’s just a personal gripe, not a real objection. I would have no problem with Congress swapping _E Pluribus Unum_ for “In God We Trust.” ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/210 "2014-06-01T18:48:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Again, it’s quite amusing to me to watch devout Christians argue so vehemently for the total obsolescence of their faith just so they can stick it on money. If it’s lost “any significant religious content”, then you’re acknowledging that it’s an empty phrase that means nothing. And if that’s the case, then why is that empty phrase so hotly defended every time the suggestion is made to remove it? > > You and the IGWT brigade are trying very hard to have it both ways, **Bricker**. It’s religiously important enough to the majority religions that it’s next to impossible to remove it, and yet it’s supposedly an empty phrase that contains nothing but secular symbolism. Which is it? Because it can’t be both. The phrase can mean one thing in the context of government recogniton of our heritage and another in the context of religion. It’s a false dichotomy your propose–our choice is only a secular government and a secular religion, or a religious government and religious religion, choose one, because we cannot have a secular government and religious religion under this requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/211 "2014-06-01T18:50:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, that’s an excellent example. My only slight gripe would be that the Latin makes it impenetrable to an unfortunately large minority of the population, but that’s just a personal gripe, not a real objection. I suspect an unfortunately large minority of the population would find “in God we trust” impenetrable, at least to the extent of finding a meaningless nod to our shared history in there. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/212 "2014-06-01T18:53:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We already did. > _E Pluribus Unum_-“Out of many, one”. Could be taken religiously, just as you take “In God We Trust” to be religious. Christians believe that they are all part of the body of Christ, and thus, “Out of Many, One.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/213 "2014-06-01T18:56:41Z")
Did you _read_ that before you posted it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/214 "2014-06-01T19:11:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, I dunno. The Christians who like to go around putting religious mottoes on our money seem to be much more interested in the God of the Old Testament than the New. Not seeing how that even matters, but… really??? They seem to be awfully interested in Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/215 "2014-06-01T19:48:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, that’s an excellent example. My only slight gripe would be that the Latin makes it impenetrable to an unfortunately large minority of the population, but that’s just a personal gripe, not a real objection. I would have no problem with Congress swapping _E Pluribus Unum_ for “In God We Trust.” And we _have_ used it for that purpose before without any great hue and cry from the general populace that they couldn’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/216 "2014-06-01T20:00:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And we _have_ used it for that purpose before without any great hue and cry from the general populace that they couldn’t understand it. Again, this is just a personal gripe, not any sort of fatal flaw. But the lack of hue and cry simply means that people didn’t understand it and didn’t care that they didn’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/217 "2014-06-01T20:03:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not seeing how that even matters, but… really??? They seem to be awfully interested in Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior. They are interested in throwing his name around, and in End Times fantasies about a bloodthirsty version of him coming back, sucking them into heaven & slaughtering all the non-Christians; that’s pretty much where their interest ends. Their actual beliefs and agendas revolve around the Old Testament and the Apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/218 "2014-06-01T20:12:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again, this is just a personal gripe, not any sort of fatal flaw. But the lack of hue and cry simply means that people didn’t understand it and didn’t care that they didn’t understand it. So if you have two such phrases to choose from, and one of those phases is seen as religious and/or discriminatory by a percentage of the populace…😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/219 "2014-06-01T20:22:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They are interested in throwing his name around, and in End Times fantasies about a bloodthirsty version of him coming back, sucking them into heaven & slaughtering all the non-Christians; that’s pretty much where their interest ends. Their actual beliefs and agendas revolve around the Old Testament and the Apocalypse. Even if that’s true (and I don’t accept it as true) it still doesn’t make the Christian God and the Jewish God the same. In order for that to be true, Jews would have to accept Jesus as God, which would make them Christians, not Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/220 "2014-06-01T20:41:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not seeing how that even matters, but… really??? They seem to be awfully interested in Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior. It was a joke. Look, even if we accept that it’s a different god, I don’t think we can say, “well, it’s okay because the Jewish members of the legislature didn’t mind.” Having said that, I accept the argument you were actually making, which was that it wasn’t just Christians who voted for this (the second time, anyway.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557.md?page=12)