# In God We Trust (all others pay cash) - Second Circuit upholds phrase on money **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557 "2014-05-29T13:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/221 "2014-06-01T23:15:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Even if that’s true (and I don’t accept it as true) it still doesn’t make the Christian God and the Jewish God the same. In order for that to be true, Jews would have to accept Jesus as God, which would make them Christians, not Jews. First, how they feel about Jesus has nothing to do with whether or not they worship the same god. And second, Jews are irrelevant to the subject; “In God We Trust” is about pushing Christianity, not Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/222 "2014-06-01T23:23:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, how they feel about Jesus has nothing to do with whether or not they worship the same god. If they (Jews} “feel” that Jesus is not God, it sure does. > [@](#): > > And second, Jews are irrelevant to the subject; “In God We Trust” is about pushing Christianity, not Judaism. Not necessarily. It has 90% support by Americans, and Christians don’t make up 90% of the population. “In Jesus We Trust” would be pushing Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/223 "2014-06-02T00:17:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if you have two such phrases to choose from, and one of those phases is seen as religious and/or discriminatory by a percentage of the populace…😃 But a much bigger percentage of the populace sees removing the first phrase as an attempt to attack their religion…by removing the secular, historical reference to it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/224 "2014-06-02T00:20:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It has 90% support by Americans, and Christians don’t make up 90% of the population. Not [that far off](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html), really. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/225 "2014-06-02T00:30:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not [that far off](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html), really. Far enough off to make **Der Trihs’s** unsupported assertion “not necessarily” correct. Which is exactly what i stated. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/226 "2014-06-02T01:41:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If they (Jews} “feel” that Jesus is not God, it sure does. No, it doesn’t. They don’t think he was the Messiah they were waiting for; that doesn’t make the god they worship a different one. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not necessarily. It has 90% support by Americans, and Christians don’t make up 90% of the population. What makes you think that there’s a 100% correlation between supporting pushing Christianity and being Christian? Plenty of religious people think that any religion is better than none. If it was “In Kali we trust” there’d be a fair number of Christians who’d support it just because pushing Kali worship is better than the Ultimate Evil of secularism/atheism. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > “In Jesus We Trust” would be pushing Christianity. And so is In God We Trust. That’s why it was put there, and people don’t even pretend otherwise outside of court cases defending it and conversations like this one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/227 "2014-06-02T02:00:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it doesn’t. They don’t think he was the Messiah they were waiting for; that doesn’t make the god they worship a different one. The Messiah they are waiting for (well, some of them anyway) isn’t God. > [@](#): > > What makes you think that there’s a 100% correlation between supporting pushing Christianity and being Christian? Plenty of religious people think that any religion is better than none. If it was “In Kali we trust” there’d be a fair number of Christians who’d support it just because pushing Kali worship is better than the Ultimate Evil of secularism/atheism. > > And so is In God We Trust. That’s why it was put there, and people don’t even pretend otherwise outside of court cases defending it and conversations like this one. Well, it’s your assertion that ““In God We Trust” is about pushing Christianity”. Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/228 "2014-06-02T04:07:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, it’s your assertion that ““In God We Trust” is about pushing Christianity”. > > Prove it. :rolleyes: The historical facts have already been repeatedly pointed out to you. You just aren’t interested in them. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/229 "2014-06-02T04:13:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In fairness, the legislation at issue in _Dred Scott_ was federal, not state. In the precursor decision the Missouri Supreme Court had ruled that Missouri law did not require his emancipation. Correct, but the absolute property right was assumed. It would be like if Virginia allowed private individuals to possess weapons grade anthrax and that resident tried to carry it on a tour of the White House and had his anthrax confiscated. It would seem that the Dred Scott court would rule that the feds allowing DC or White House policy to allow the confiscation of my anthrax would be a due process violation of my right to property in anthrax recognized by the Commonwealth of Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/230 "2014-06-02T13:10:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: The historical facts have already been repeatedly pointed out to you. You just aren’t interested in them. The “historical facts” are history. We’re talking about today. And today, there are lots of non-Christians who support this, so it’s simply incorrect to claim that there is nothing behind this other an attempt to push Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/231 "2014-06-02T14:14:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The “historical facts” are history. We’re talking about today. And today, there are lots of non-Christians who support this, so it’s simply incorrect to claim that there is nothing behind this other an attempt to push Christianity. It is fact that a majority of Americans support leaving it as is, but it is blind supposition that they think it is non-Christian(let alone secular) in nature. edited to add: There is a difference between those that say they support leaving it alone in a poll, and those that _actively_ fight against it’s removal. The latter are almost exclusively Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/232 "2014-06-02T16:27:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > edited to add: There is a difference between those that say they support leaving it alone in a poll, and those that _actively_ fight against it’s removal. **The latter are almost exclusively Christian**. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/233 "2014-06-02T16:27:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is fact that a majority of Americans support leaving it as is, but it is blind supposition that they think it is non-Christian(let alone secular) in nature. > > edited to add: There is a difference between those that say they support leaving it alone in a poll, and those that _actively_ fight against it’s removal. The latter are almost exclusively Christian. The man who led the fight in the Second Circuit in this case – that is, the lead attorney defending the statute against Newdow’s challenge – was the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. He is Preetinder Singh Bharara, known as “Preet.” He is an Indian-American who identifies as Sikh; his father was Sikh and his mother Hindu. His wife’s father is Muslim and her mother Jewish; his wife is Jewish and practices that faith. As he put it during a speech to a bar association group several years ago, this means: "…the even when my wife fasts for Yom Kippur, and my father-in-law fasts for Ramadan, I get to stuff my face with samosas all day.” Just an anecdote, of course. But Preet ain’t Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/234 "2014-06-02T16:50:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The man who led the fight in the Second Circuit in this case – that is, the lead attorney defending the statute against Newdow’s challenge – was the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. > > He is Preetinder Singh Bharara, known as “Preet.” He is an Indian-American who identifies as Sikh; his father was Sikh and his mother Hindu. His wife’s father is Muslim and her mother Jewish; his wife is Jewish and practices that faith. As he put it during a speech to a bar association group several years ago, this means: "…the even when my wife fasts for Yom Kippur, and my father-in-law fasts for Ramadan, I get to stuff my face with samosas all day. I’m not sure how these things work-when you say he was the lead attorney, are you saying that this was a case he volunteered to do, or is this a case he did because it was in his jurisdiction? If the former, then he probably thought the verbiage belonged on the coinage. If the latter, then the supporters of it got damn lucky because I would trust this man with everything I have even if I knew for a fact that he hated me-he is that good and that trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/235 "2014-06-02T16:51:10Z")
I just don’t understand just what “In God We Trust” is supposed to be, if it’s not religious. “Ceremonial Deism” is either religious (in which case, why is it on our money?) or purely ceremonial (in which case, why are the most ardent defenders of it Christian?). It’s like they’re trying to have it both ways- “It doesn’t mean anything… except, you know, it does.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/236 "2014-06-02T16:52:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But Preet ain’t Christian. Are you suggesting he volunteered to defend? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/237 "2014-06-02T16:56:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not sure how these things work-when you say he was the lead attorney, are you saying that this was a case he volunteered to do, or is this a case he did because it was in his jurisdiction? If the former, then he probably thought the verbiage belonged on the coinage. If the latter, then the supporters of it got damn lucky because I would trust this man with everything I have even if I knew for a fact that he hated me-he is that good and that trustworthy. Well, the case was filed by, inter alia, the New York Athiests, so it landed in Preet’s lap by virtue of his being the US Attorney. He did not volunteer, but defending or not, and certainly how vigorously to defend, was within his discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/238 "2014-06-02T17:03:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, the case was filed by, inter alia, the New York Athiests, so it landed in Preet’s lap by virtue of his being the US Attorney. He did not volunteer, but defending or not, and certainly how vigorously to defend, was within his discretion. So he had the option of handing it off to someone else? As far as defending it vigorously goes, from what little I know of him that’s the _only_ way he does his job-I think it’s hardwired into his system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/239 "2014-06-03T23:29:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So he had the option of handing it off to someone else? As far as defending it vigorously goes, from what little I know of him that’s the _only_ way he does his job-I think it’s hardwired into his system. Yes, he had the option – he’s the guy in charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557.md?page=11)