# In God We Trust (all others pay cash) - Second Circuit upholds phrase on money **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557 "2014-05-29T13:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/21 "2014-05-29T14:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > We conclude that the statutes at issue do not violate the Establishment Clause or the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA because they do not have a religious purpose or advance religion… [A](http://www.ingodwetrustmotto.us/) [load](http://ingodwetrustusa.org/) [of](http://www.nlf.net/Activities/briefings/in_god_we_trust.htm) [crap.](http://aclj.org/in-god-we-trust) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/22 "2014-05-29T14:44:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well you didn’t live my life. Well, you haven’t told us of any “serious consequences” yet. > [@](#): > > No, I’m not constantly troubled by it but certainly the teachers of my catholic middle and high school used that reasoning and based on conversation with other people, they were not alone in thinking that. I would think that offered you an excellent opportunity to prove them wrong. It’s easily done on this matter. > [@](#): > > The phrase perpetuates a low-grade, pervasive and erroneous assumption about our country and I would think on that basis alone, it’s worthwhile to get rid of it. But if something is “low grade”, it’s not serious. I’m an atheist and wish it weren’t on the currency, but it has had zero effect on my life. I think it’s wise to pick one’s battles and this isn’t one of them. Makes us look bad and there is no upside. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/23 "2014-05-29T14:48:07Z")
Regarding the “no religious purpose” phrase, consider two mottoes that we might put on currency, something that is in use by nearly everyone in this country, every day, frequently. Motto #1: “We like trees.” Motto #2: “In God we trust.” Motto #1 cannot possibly be said to advance religion (except for Druids), but Motto #2 is, at best, ambiguous, and at worst, a blatant religious statement. The courts do not seem to be able to make this distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/24 "2014-05-29T14:52:26Z")
I agree that the decision is consistent with earlier rulings. I also agree that the notion that the phrase “In God We Trust” does not advance religion is well on the far side of idiotic. I disagree that this is minor. Considering how I would feel if the words were 'In Satan We Trust" or “There is No God”, this is a bad ruling, and a clear violation of the Constitution. The Supreme Court is wrong, just as they were in _Kelo v. City of New London_ and _Plessy v. Ferguson_ and _Roe v. Wade_. And \*stare decisis \* can kiss my hairy white textualist ass. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/25 "2014-05-29T15:02:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I agree that the decision is consistent with earlier rulings. I also agree that the notion that the phrase “In God We Trust” does not advance religion is well on the far side of idiotic. > > I disagree that this is minor. Considering how I would feel if the words were 'In Satan We Trust" or “There is No God”, this is a bad ruling, and a clear violation of the Constitution. > > The Supreme Court is wrong, just as they were in _Kelo v. City of New London_ and _Plessy v. Ferguson_ and _Roe v. Wade_. > > And \*stare decisis \* can kiss my hairy white textualist ass. > > Regards, > Shodan A textualist would tell you that this does constitute an establishment of religion. Not even close. It’s only in a very lose interpretation of the 1st amendment that this can be considered a violation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/26 "2014-05-29T15:11:26Z")
Saying that Congress may pass a law regarding an establishment of religion is not a loose interpretation of the First Amendment - it is a violation of it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/27 "2014-05-29T15:20:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Supreme Court is wrong, just as they were in _Kelo v. City of New London_ and _Plessy v. Ferguson_ and _Roe v. Wade_. I was with you up until _Roe._ How do you feel about _Dred Scott,_ _Brown_ or _Mutual Film?_ ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/28 "2014-05-29T15:55:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, you haven’t told us of any “serious consequences” yet. I don’t think the phrase directly relates to any particular event but it creates a culture of default religionism that makes people think it’s acceptable for religion to be a part of politics. I don’t think removing the phrase will remove religion entirely, but I think it would be a good start and demonstrate good faith on the part of the religious segment of the US. > [@](#): > > I would think that offered you an excellent opportunity to prove them wrong. It’s easily done on this matter. The teacher says “Of course the US is a christian nation.” You say, what, that the Treaty of Tripoli states that it’s not? That’s a pretty obscure line of argumentation for a 12year old. They return the volley with, “If the US isn’t a christian nation, why is ‘in god we trust’ on our money?”. Now what? > [@](#): > > But if something is “low grade”, it’s not serious. Lemon juice is a low-grade acid but it will still cook the fish in your ceviche. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/29 "2014-05-29T16:21:22Z")
People still use cash? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/30 "2014-05-29T16:24:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > People still use cash? Your password cannot be stolen and your PIN cannot be forgotten. It’s honored most anywhere. You might say _In Cash We Trust._ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/31 "2014-05-29T16:24:58Z")
I choose to be amused by the whole thing, especially how the most fanatical Christians are so eager to debase their religion into “Ceremonial Deism” just so they can say they’re allowed to put slogans on the currency. Both this and the recent government prayer ruling are just another step down the ladder for actual, meaningful Christian faith. They value style over substance, always…God on money, God in council and congressional prayers, God, God, God…but the courts have basically defined their God as generic in order to shoehorn him in. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/32 "2014-05-29T16:25:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Saying that Congress may pass a law regarding an establishment of religion is not a loose interpretation of the First Amendment - it is a violation of it. > > Regards, > Shodan Here the text: \*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion \* Make your textualist argument that putting “In God We Trust” on the currency is a violation of that clause. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/33 "2014-05-29T16:40:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here the text: > > \*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion > \* > Make your textualist argument that putting “In God We Trust” on the currency is a violation of that clause. > [@](#): > > es·tab·lish/ɪˈstæblɪʃ/ Show Spelled [ih-stab-lish] Show IPA > verb (used with object) > > 1. to found, institute, build, or bring into being on a firm or stable basis: to establish a university; to establish a medical practice. > 2. to install or settle in a position, place, business, etc.: to establish one’s child in business. > 3. to show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter. > 4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon. > 5. to bring about permanently: to establish order. See definitions 3 and 4. Stating that you trust in a God shows that you believe the existence of God to be valid or true, as well as to cause the recognition of religion to occur. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/34 "2014-05-29T16:41:18Z")
I doubt that God’s particularly pleased to see His name on our money, considering some of the shit we spend it on. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/35 "2014-05-29T16:45:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > \*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion > \* > Make your textualist argument that putting “In God We Trust” on the currency is a violation of that clause. How is that _not_ the endorsement of a religion by Congress? Congress passed a law that this phrase had to be printed on currency, and it’s a phrase that endorses a religion, or a certain subset of religions. The only way I can imagine to get out of it is to say that the “God” in “In God We Trust” doesn’t actually refer to the deity of any religion, but is just ceremonial language that sounds fancy. But that’s bullshit, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/36 "2014-05-29T16:56:37Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > How is that _not_ the endorsement of a religion by Congress? Congress passed a law that this phrase had to be printed on currency, and it’s a phrase that endorses a religion, or a certain subset of religions. > > The only way I can imagine to get out of it is to say that the “God” in “In God We Trust” doesn’t actually refer to the deity of any religion, but is just ceremonial language that sounds fancy. But that’s bullshit, right? Yes, that’s bullshit. But there is SO much bullshit coming out of the Supreme Court that this tiny turd doesn’t even register. Roe v. Wade. Kelo v. City of New London. Plessy v. Ferguson. Gonzales v. Raich. Wickard v. Filburn. Whatever that Obamacare SC case was named where the mandate was upheld as a tax although it was explicitly defined as not a tax and the government argued it was not a tax… I strongly suspect that people who think this current decision is bullshit support at least some of the above cases if not all of them. Goose, gander, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/37 "2014-05-29T17:04:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, that’s bullshit. But there is SO much bullshit coming out of the Supreme Court that this tiny turd doesn’t even register. Roe v. Wade. Kelo v. City of New London. Plessy v. Ferguson. Gonzales v. Raich. Wickard v. Filburn. Whatever that Obamacare SC case was named where the mandate was upheld as a tax although it was explicitly defined as not a tax and the government argued it was not a tax… > > I strongly suspect that people who think this current decision is bullshit support at least some of the above cases if not all of them. Goose, gander, etc… Yep, there’s all sorts of bullshit out there in the world, and your point would be valid if the title of this thread was “All The Bullshit In The World”. What opinions others may hold about totally unrelated subjects really don’t matter when it comes to the topic brought up by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/38 "2014-05-29T17:31:03Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > How is that _not_ the endorsement of a religion by Congress? Congress passed a law that this phrase had to be printed on currency, and it’s a phrase that endorses a religion, or a certain subset of religions. A textualist reading would say it’s not the establishment of religion. I wouldn’t even go so far as to say the motto is an “endorsement” of religion. Perhaps “acknowledgement”. But neither of those is “establishment”. **Darth Panda:** Words do not stand alone in the constitution. In the phrase “Establishment of religion”, the word "establishment’ means something very specific. It does not take on every shade of meaning of that word. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/39 "2014-05-29T17:34:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The only way I can imagine to get out of it is to say that the “God” in “In God We Trust” doesn’t actually refer to the deity of any religion, but is just ceremonial language that sounds fancy. But that’s bullshit, right? Keep in mind that I was addressing **Shodan’s** claim that a textualist reading of the establishment clause tells us this is a violation. I do agree that in the current jurisprudence, the concept of “ceremonial deism” is bullshit. In the context of a textualist or originalist reading of the constitution, I see no problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557/40 "2014-05-29T17:37:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here the text: > > \*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion > \* > Make your textualist argument that putting “In God We Trust” on the currency is a violation of that clause. Because compelling people to join in these kinds of declarations of faith is an establishment of religion. If the question is “how do you know what ‘establishment of religion’ means”, that is not a worthwhile game. Because how do we know that “Congress” means Congress or “shall” means shall? > [@](#): > > In the phrase “Establishment of religion”, the word "establishment’ means something very specific. Yes, it does. And this ruling is contradictory to that meaning. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-all-others-pay-cash-second-circuit-upholds-phrase-on-money/689557.md?page=3)