# "IN God We Trust": Religion, or Tradition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617 "2018-02-26T18:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/61 "2018-03-01T17:45:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Who deserve it if they don’t vote the chumps out. > But they’ll probably blame the evil atheists at the ACLU. > I wonder if you can pledge negative money at their Go Fund Me campaign. Better yet: Quatloos and/or gold-pressed Latinum. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/62 "2018-03-01T17:58:08Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > And in the end, the losers are the taxpayers. > [@Voyager](#): > > Who deserve it if they don’t vote the chumps out. Except that all taxpayers lose, including the minority who did not vote for them. One of the most important purposes of a constitution is to protect against the tyranny of the majority. It seems to me that justice is only served here if elected officials can be held _personally_ liable for constitutional violations of this kind. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/63 "2018-03-01T18:25:26Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The apologist’s answer to that is “There is only one God, but He goes by different names.” > > Which gets a little problematical when you try to include modern religions with multiple gods, like Hindu, or Catholic. Purely for factual purposes, and not in the interest of continuing any debate about polytheism, I should point out that Hindus believe all gods are facets of the same ultimate being (including the gods of other religions). So Hindu beliefs are not incompatible with monotheism (though the reverse may not be true). ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/64 "2018-03-01T19:02:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Which gets a little problematical when you try to include modern religions with multiple gods, like Hindu, or Catholic. When I read this statement I think I literally heard a record scratch sound effect in my head. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/65 "2018-03-01T21:09:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Whenever anyone claims that a religious icon like “In God We Trust” is just ceremonial, I want to ask them how they would feel if the equivalent icon of a different faith were being mandated. “God” is meant to be generic, as it can be a generic descriptor of “The Deity” in the English language. It’s “ceremonial deism” not “ceremony”. Deism, as in God-related. If “Jehovah” had been used, it would be different. Now, I’ve always considered ceremonial deism to be mostly a fig leaf, but your argument doesn’t do anything to demolish the concept as it misses an important element. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/66 "2018-03-01T21:32:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “God” is meant to be generic, as it can be a generic descriptor of “The Deity” in the English language. It’s “ceremonial deism” not “ceremony”. Deism, as in God-related. If “Jehovah” had been used, it would be different. > > Now, I’ve always considered ceremonial deism to be mostly a fig leaf, but your argument doesn’t do anything to demolish the concept as it misses an important element. Do you _really_ believe that the Christian proposing that schools be mandated to show that phrase, and people that passed that bill, are promoting generic ceremonial deism, or is this another “the ends justify the means” deal? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/67 "2018-03-02T02:02:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “In God we trust” and “under God” were both added only in the 1950’s, as part of the campaign to show we weren’t as bad as the godless atheistic commies. It wasn’t “ceremonial” at all, but those wanting to keep them today are forced to claim that they don’t really mean anything more than that. > > “Having it both ways” is one way to describe it. Another is “Bullshit”. Not exactly correct, “In God We Trust” was on some US currency earlier than that, for example the [Morgan Dollar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_dollar) from 1878. Oh, and Wikipedia tells me it first appeared on the two cent piece in 1864. They just made it required on all US currency in the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/68 "2018-03-02T03:02:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Purely for factual purposes, and not in the interest of continuing any debate about polytheism, I should point out that Hindus believe all gods are facets of the same ultimate being (including the gods of other religions). So Hindu beliefs are not incompatible with monotheism (though the reverse may not be true). There were two notes about putting the monotheism thing to the side. You should try to obey moderator instructions. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/69 "2018-03-02T12:51:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you _really_ believe that the Christian proposing that schools be mandated to show that phrase, and people that passed that bill, are promoting generic ceremonial deism, or is this another “the ends justify the means” deal? Does their faith condone lying in the cause of evangelism? It certainly doesn’t include respecting the Constitution, or other faiths, or the lack of them. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/70 "2018-03-02T13:06:52Z")
> [@proudfootz](#): > > We can hardly entrust the public schools with teaching kids religion, can we? A properly done public School can of course be trusted teaching Kids Religion. After all universities offer not only courses in theology, but also in Religion science. A good Religion class in my Country doesn’t test faith, it teaches Facts: about history of church, agreed-upon tenets of faith, comparative Religion, ethics etc. Those Facts can be tested on whether they were learned - not believed in - and can be discussed. Of course, that requires teacher with a good University education, and School books not written by revisionists with an Agenda, a ministry for education that controls Quality of books, makes plans of what subject matter is required to teach etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/71 "2018-03-02T13:22:12Z")
I have spiritual beliefs, but one of them is NOT, “Freedom of religion means that we are going to shove it down your throats.” Besides, it is very misleading and hypocritical because nothing could be more godless than our government and the rich, corporate fueled Plutocracy that actually runs it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/72 "2018-03-04T17:27:56Z")
“In God We Trust” - then what are all of those nukes for? 10 Commandments - again you jest - TV is forbidden by the big 10 and our Sabbath is just a day for football. In what possible sense is the US a nation “under God”? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/73 "2018-03-04T19:48:20Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > A properly done public School can of course be trusted teaching Kids Religion. After all universities offer not only courses in theology, but also in Religion science. > > A good Religion class in my Country doesn’t test faith, it teaches Facts: about history of church, agreed-upon tenets of faith, comparative Religion, ethics etc. > > Those Facts can be tested on whether they were learned - not believed in - and can be discussed. > > Of course, that requires teacher with a good University education, and School books not written by revisionists with an Agenda, a ministry for education that controls Quality of books, makes plans of what subject matter is required to teach etc. I know a little bit about German public education beczuse my daughter taught in a southern German school, and got the massive number of both Catholic and Lutheran holidays off. And the kids all trooped off to Mass in the morning. Besides being unconstitutional, this would never work in the US. First, the diversity of religion means that either each would get a tiny amount of time or you’d have to find teachers specializing in each religion. World history classes do have a bried section on world religions which was purely factual in the books my kids used. But it was a week or two for all the major ones together. The real problem would be that any factual description of religions as being more or less equally valid taught in a religion class would have many religious people hit the roof. They want their brand taught as the only true brand. It is hard enough in some places in the US to teach science where it conflicts with their version of the Bible. I can just imagine what would happen if they taught about where and when the Bible was actually written. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/74 "2018-03-04T19:59:49Z")
Voyager, Such a course would be appropriate - “The Bible Unearthed” for the text. Perhaps it would mobilize the ‘religious’ community to oppose religion being taught in schools. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/75 "2018-03-05T09:02:38Z")
How about ‘In gods we trust’. Non-denominational, ceremonial deism. Also has the bonus of highlighting how pathetic it is. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/76 "2018-03-05T09:23:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know a little bit about German public education beczuse my daughter taught in a southern German school, and got the massive number of both Catholic and Lutheran holidays off. No, she didn’t get Catholic and Lutheran Holidays off. She got state Holidays off, some of which are ecumenical (Christmas, easter, pentecoast), some of which are divided by Religion (you get either Nov. 1st if your Region is catholic, or Oct. 31st if your Region is Protestant). > [@](#): > > And the kids all trooped off to Mass in the morning. What decade? Religious or normal School? I remember back to the 80s, and we never went off to Mass in the morning. In AP High School we had a voluntary ecumenical Service at the beginning and end of School year (and very few pupils showed up). In Primary School, each day started with a song, likely religious, maybe a General prayer. > [@](#): > > First, the diversity of religion means that either each would get a tiny amount of time or you’d have to find teachers specializing in each religion. You don’t seem to know that we do have religious freedom in Germany, too, and therefore diversity of Religion. The way it’s done is that the Major churches, who have a contract with the government (Konkordat) offer classes - that is, Roman Catholics and Protestant Lutherans; Moslems are currently phased in. If you/ your child belongs to a different splinter - Russian Orthodox or Protestant Reformed - you can either put them in the “Close enough” class (Catholic or Lutheran), or they go to the “Ethics” class, which is also were atheists (agnostics), and pupils where the churches don’t have a contract with the government go (buddhists, Jews, Hindus…) Ethics class teaches both Ethical behaviour and an overview over Major world religions. > [@](#): > > The real problem would be that any factual description of religions as being more or less equally valid taught in a religion class would have many religious people hit the roof. That’s not what’s taught in Religion class at all. But Facts are taught: this is how the Christian Church history Looks like; this is how the Protestant Reformation happened, and why; this is what Hindus, Moslims, Buddhists believe. This is not about what’s valid, but having factual Information instead of defamation “They are all wrong because they deny God but in their heart they really know it’s true”. > [@](#): > > It is hard enough in some places in the US to teach science where it conflicts with their version of the Bible. I can just imagine what would happen if they taught about where and when the Bible was actually written. Which is precisely why it’s so necessary for Society to actually teach truth and break the hold of hate preachers so that Kids learn Facts and can function in a democratic Society. But if you are afraid of loudmouth minority, then US will Keep having “freedom of Religion” on paper and theocracy in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/77 "2018-03-05T18:03:07Z")
“US will Keep having “freedom of Religion” on paper and theocracy in practice” Well said! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/78 "2018-03-07T20:26:56Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > How about ‘In gods we trust’. > > Non-denominational, ceremonial deism. Also has the bonus of highlighting how pathetic it is. Or they could actually follow the first amendment and not put anything regarding deities. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/79 "2018-03-07T21:25:32Z")
How about “In ourselves we trust, because we damn sure can’t count on anybody else to deal with our problems for us.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617/80 "2018-03-07T21:26:54Z")
I was thinking “In Money We Trust”. It would be particularly amusing when printed on money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-god-we-trust-religion-or-tradition/809617.md?page=5)