# In hindsight: was the US' Iraq invasion a positive thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616 "2012-01-06T12:45:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/41 "2012-01-06T20:53:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Hence the argument by some that Hussein would have killed more people if he had remained dictator. “Some” are being hopeful that this makes it all a wash. Since he had the weapons or the control of the country necessary to do so, he wasn’t going to pull off mass killings like he did in the '80s or early '90s. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/42 "2012-01-06T21:33:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Other than the fact that it killed tens or hundreds of thousands of people and maimed even more that, displaced millions, screwed up international diplomacy by giving a free hand to Iran and North Korea while giving them strong encouragement to seek nuclear weapons for protection, and added a huge chunk to the U.S. debt, yes, it turned out great. Wahoo. Go team. You missed the bit about extraordinary rendition, torture, and Guantanamo. More generally, you folks seem to be missing the point that Iraq is in crisis right now - nothing is ‘over’ at all. Not least becasue Iran is the most powerful influence on Iraqi national politics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/43 "2012-01-06T21:36:50Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You missed the bit about extraordinary rendition, torture, and Guantanamo. > > More generally, you folks seem to be missing the point that Iraq is in crisis right now - nothing is ‘over’ at all. Not least becasue Iran is the most powerful influence on Iraqi national politics. Who folks? I don’t care if Iraq is paradise itself, our invasion wasn’t worth it. It doesn’t matter to me what shape Iraq is in. The ends do not justify the means. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/44 "2012-01-06T21:37:27Z")
I think it will wind up being a good thing, but it’s gonna take some time before we see all the long-term results. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/45 "2012-01-06T21:41:01Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You missed the bit about extraordinary rendition, torture, and Guantanamo. Those things were all going on before the war. Remember how a bunch of the bullshit evidence for the Iraq war was obtained by torturing the detainee they called Curveball? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/46 "2012-01-06T21:41:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad: May no one state the case that way ever again. > > [Iraqi lives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_iraq_war) are worth no less, y’know. I agree with you, Iraqi’s have a value. This cannot be denied. However, as an American, my loyalty to my tribe is such that I agree, whatever else was going in with Iraq at the time of the invasion, it was not worth the loss of one American servicemembers life to fix it. It’s cold, and cruel, and very “un PC”, but it’s also the world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/47 "2012-01-06T22:30:02Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I agree with you, Iraqi’s have a value. This cannot be denied. We certainly don’t act like they do. > [@Tristan](#): > > However, as an American, my loyalty to my tribe is such that I agree, whatever else was going in with Iraq at the time of the invasion, it was not worth the loss of one American servicemembers life to fix it. > > It’s cold, and cruel, and very “un PC”, but it’s also the world we live in. Holding American lives as being of value and Iraqis as being less valuable than humans or even animals is very PC; it’s the attitude most Americans have. Most Americans would be more outraged if the Iraqi casualties had been dogs or cats. As for me, i have no “loyalty to my tribe” at all; the Americans were the invaders, so their deaths are not only not negative, they are positive. The deaths of Iraqis were tragedies; the deaths of their American killers were not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/48 "2012-01-06T22:53:53Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > But I have wondered if, in hindsight, in general, the intervention was a good thing. Was it, net speaking, a Vietnam, or was it a liberation of Western Europe from a Hitler? No, it was a horrible mistake. Even if Iraq looks like Turkey in 50 years, it was a horrible mistake. > [@Maastricht](#): > > So if Saddam was, directly or indirectly, during his regime responsible for around 2 million people, and the war so far has cost upwards from .3 million lives on all sides, then I’d say removing Saddam is still a clearly net good thing. Those 300,000 deaths wasn’t going to bring back the 2 million already dead. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Correct, but the containment of Saddam hurt the common Iraqi much more then it hurt Saddams’ inner circle. But at that point the regime had terrorized people enough to get by on less weapons and less hi-tech ones. The only good thing the containment did was restrict the regime’s access to weapons, and so restrict the incidence of larger scale fights. The Iraqis could have revolted. > [@IMfez](#): > > On a long term time scale, say 50+ years, I think the changes to Iraq’s government will eventually be a net positive, although it is harder to judge on now or for the next 10 years or so given the new government’s instability It might be a net positive if you discount any effects outside of iraq. If you include the costs to the costs to the US and around the world, I’m not so sure especially considering that it might have fucking happened anyways with less bloodshed a la Egypt or Libya or Tunisia and hopefully Syria soon. > [@xtisme](#): > > Oh, I don’t disagree with you there…I see no comparison between WWII and Iraq. We could easily have supported a revolution against Saddam Hussein and we might be in a position to get paid for all that stuff like we are with the Libyans. > [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Selling. The word you’re mainly misising is ‘selling’ huge amounts of materials. And leasing. I don’t know that we got paid for most of the stuff we sent over there on lend lease. > [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > The people who were initially put in charge of the transitional occupation of Iraq (ORHA) had policies that would have made the nation stable and could have potentially prevented the entire insurgency. However, before they could do anything effective, Bremmer took over, dismantled ORHA and started the CPA. … > Under Bremmer’s immediate control, several sweeping decisions were instituted that shoved Iraq into a quickly spiraling hell. A bad idea executed poorly. > [@](#): > > When you add up the entire cost of all that has happened–the loss of american troop lives, the lost of american contractors, the fact more Iraqi civilians were killed than military or paramilitary (something along the lines of 2/3rds all iraqi deaths were civilians. not civilian insurgents, but honest-to-goodness innocent bystanders), the loss of infastructure, the loss of cultural heritage (7000 years of artifacts were looted or destroyed), the financial cost here and abroad, the geopolitical strife, and the loss of America’s integrity on the world-scale—no. > not at all worth it. Agreed the cost to the Iraqis is not the only cost we shold consider. > [@](#): > > Look how differently things could have been handled. Saddam was hated by the Shi’a majority. There’s basically no different polical climate in pre-war Iraq than in Egypt during their revolution last year, or Libya, or elsewhere. > Strategic strikes could have destroyed Saddam much the same as stricks on Gadaffi all without a quagmire of a groundwar. > > If we wanted to honestly support the people of Iraq by helping them dispose of a horrible dictator, we could have done so in the same manner as Libya or Egypt or Somalia or Yemen. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/49 "2012-01-07T02:14:21Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We certainly don’t act like they do. You’re correct for once, we don’t gas civilian populations. > [@](#): > > Holding American lives as being of value and Iraqis as being less valuable than humans or even animals is very PC; it’s the attitude most Americans have. Most Americans would be more outraged if the Iraqi casualties had been dogs or cats. You seem to think most Americans have the mentality of Genghis Khan or Timurlane. > [@](#): > > As for me, i have no “loyalty to my tribe” at all; the Americans were the invaders, so their deaths are not only not negative, they are positive. The deaths of Iraqis were tragedies; the deaths of their American killers were not. Although the Iraq War was a mistake, its absurd to think America was eviller than the Islamist ideology of Al Qaeda in Iraq who attacked American soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/50 "2012-01-07T02:22:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You’re correct for once, we don’t gas civilian populations. No; we shoot them, shred them, and set them on fire. As well as starve them and subject them to disease. We also destroy their property, their cultural heritage, and unleash general chaos. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You seem to think most Americans have the mentality of Genghis Khan or Timurlane. Pretty much. Genghis seems to have been better at actually ruling over conquered territories than we are though. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Although the Iraq War was a mistake, its absurd to think America was eviller than the Islamist ideology of Al Qaeda in Iraq who attacked American soldiers. We killed far more people than Al Qaeda ever did, and Al Qaeda was a minor factor in Iraq that was only there because we let them in. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/51 "2012-01-07T02:40:32Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Correct, but the containment of Saddam hurt the common Iraqi much more then it hurt Saddams’ inner circle. Colossal understatement. This is a great contrapositive for sanctions. All it effectively does is hurt the common people of a nation while generally uneffecting the monsters in charge. Foreign Policy is something I’m thankful I have no say in. Such complicated stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/52 "2012-01-07T02:41:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; we shoot them, shred them, and set them on fire. As well as starve them and subject them to disease. We also destroy their property, their cultural heritage, and unleash general chaos. You do realize the overwhelming majority of the casualties of the Iraq War came from Iraqis shooting at each other. > [@](#): > > Pretty much. Genghis seems to have been better at actually ruling over conquered territories than we are though. I didn’t know Mongols put vast sums of wealth into rebuilding the areas they occupied. > [@](#): > > We killed far more people than Al Qaeda ever did, and Al Qaeda was a minor factor in Iraq that was only there because we let them in. The terrorists who were shooting at US troops were largely Al Qaeda and copycats. The Shia militas and the Sunni militias tended to shoot at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/53 "2012-01-07T02:43:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And Saddam and a bunch of his not so merry men got the noose , or otherwise were shuffled off this mortal coil, so it was probably a wash. > > -XT I wouldn’t trade the life of one American for a dirtball, so no, it is not a wash. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/54 "2012-01-07T02:49:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You do realize the overwhelming majority of the casualties of the Iraq War came from Iraqis shooting at each other. We deliberately completely destroyed the order of their country; we guaranteed that would happen. So yes, it’s our fault. America would be plenty bloody too if you fired all the cops, legal system, National Guard & soldiers then replaced them with nothing. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I didn’t know Mongols put vast sums of wealth into rebuilding the areas they occupied. We certainly didn’t; we just used the war as an excuse to funnel huge sums of money to Republican cronies. There was no real attempt at “rebuilding”; what little we built tended to be useless and uninhabitable. Poorly made and toxic; slapped together as cheaply as possible so we could point to it before it fell over and claim we were doing something. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The terrorists who were shooting at US troops were largely Al Qaeda and copycats. No, that was just propaganda; they were no more than a few percent at most. The Iraqis were shooting at us, because the majority of them quite reasonably wanted us all dead. And shooting at American soldiers who are occupying a conquered country is not terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/55 "2012-01-07T02:51:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Although the Iraq War was a mistake, its absurd to think America was eviller than the Islamist ideology of Al Qaeda in Iraq who attacked American soldiers. Which really has fuck all to do with the invasion of Iraq. **Der Trihs** ’s ‘invader is always culpable’ position is weak, but you’re doing yourself no favors citing bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/56 "2012-01-07T02:54:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We deliberately completely destroyed the order of their country; we guaranteed that would happen. So yes, it’s our fault. America would be plenty bloody too if you fired all the cops, legal system, National Guard & soldiers then replaced them with nothing. The police remained in place. And after other totalitarian regimes have fallen similar total reconstruction has occurred. > [@](#): > > We certainly didn’t; we just used the war as an excuse to funnel huge sums of money to Republican cronies. There was no real attempt at “rebuilding”; what little we built tended to be useless and uninhabitable. Poorly made and toxic; slapped together as cheaply as possible so we could point to it before it fell over and claim we were doing something. Oh really? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment\_in\_post-invasion\_Iraq#Current\_status\_of\_reconstruction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_in_post-invasion_Iraq#Current_status_of_reconstruction) > [@](#): > > General Petraeus noted in May, 2008 that electricity levels have exceeded pre-war production; however, this statistic is misleading. The estimated hours per day of electricity availability has shifted. During the Saddam rule, Baghdad received electricity for between 16 and 24 hours per day with 4 to 8 hours received outside of the capital. Information from the Brookings Institution (early 2007) indicates that Baghdad now receives electricity from 4 to 8 hours per day with the remainder of the nation receiving from 8 to 12 hours of electricity per day.[28] Current electricity levels of about 4000 MW have not yet reached the stated goal of nationwide production of 6000 MW. Overall reconstruction is at the same pace as German and Japanese reconstruction post World War II. > [@](#): > > No, that was just propaganda; they were no more than a few percent at most. The Iraqis were shooting at us, because the majority of them quite reasonably wanted us all dead. > > And shooting at American soldiers who are occupying a conquered country is not terrorism. What about if there had been Japanese guerrillas after US occupied Japan after World War II? The exact same thing could be said for them. ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/57 "2012-01-07T02:55:16Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > … > > But I have wondered if, in hindsight, in general, the intervention was a good thing. … Oh, I don’t know… Imagine watching your family blown up to pieces and your children’s brains blasted on the walls of your house because some war-mongererers from the other side of the planet wanted to see this invasion since the early 1980’s … just to feel important for themselves that they could kill so many thousands of dark skinned people and prove they were looking after the interests of white Christians. “Intervention” talk is nice if there are other people dying for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/58 "2012-01-07T02:59:39Z")
> [@Paralogic](#): > > Oh, I don’t know… > > Imagine watching your family blown up to pieces and your children’s brains blasted on the walls of your house because some war-mongererers from the other side of the planet wanted to see this invasion since the early 1980’s … just to feel important for themselves that they could kill so many thousands of dark skinned people and prove they were looking after the interests of white Christians. > > “Intervention” talk is nice if there are other people dying for it. :rolleyes: Would do one now with Kurds getting gassed? ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/59 "2012-01-07T03:04:30Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > :rolleyes: Would do one now with Kurds getting gassed? What does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616/60 "2012-01-07T04:19:17Z")
> [@Paralogic](#): > > What does that mean? If you really know what I mean you’re being coy. If you really don’t know what I mean you’re myopic. Either way, what you wrote was ridiculously obnoxious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-hindsight-was-the-us-iraq-invasion-a-positive-thing/608616.md?page=4)