Selling. The word you’re mainly misising is ‘selling’ huge amounts of materials. And leasing.
Much easier to just profit and let others fight fascism.
In relatrion to Iraq, of course invasion is a better option. Imposing solutions on sovereign states - esopecially sovereign states of a different religion and vastly different culture - always works well.
p.s. it might just be a decade or so early for ‘hindsight’.
[QUOTE=PrettyVacant]
Selling. The word you’re mainly misising is ‘selling’ huge amounts of materials. And leasing.
[/QUOTE]
So, which is it…selling or leasing? My own recollection was that we basically gave it to them with some vague promise that they would pay it back in the future, assuming they won. And that in some cases we just let it go…I don’t believe the Soviets, for instance, ever paid back all they ‘leased’ from us. But feel free to provide cites that we got every nickle and dime back with interest, and that this was the sole or primary reason we did what we did.
Of course, the fact that it wasn’t our fight and that we didn’t want to get sucked into what looked like yet another of the endless series of European blood baths might have factored in as well, ehe?
-XT
Other than the fact that it killed tens or hundreds of thousands of people and maimed even more that, displaced millions, screwed up international diplomacy by giving a free hand to Iran and North Korea while giving them strong encouragement to seek nuclear weapons for protection, and added a huge chunk to the U.S. debt, yes, it turned out great. Wahoo. Go team.
No. It was too expensive, and money is power. The USA risked its position as world leader for gains that even under the best of circumstances would not compare to the expenses. It is not at all clear that you didn’t lose your position for good. And in particular the nation building aspect of it was a mistake. Both here and in Afghanistan. The Romans were good at nation building. You guys just don’t have the stomach for it. And while it is certainly noble to want to rescue the Iraqi people slavering under the tyranny of Saddam, that should be no concern of the USA.
You’re doing it again. We talked about this. Don’t make me go all Dexter on your ass.
My apologies…I fell off the wagon. Those damned 12 step programs never seem to work as advertised…
-XT
Good summary dontbesojumpy.
Not quite true. The Netherlands have a professional army, and supply troops to UN missions in war zones. We are in Afghanistan right now getting boobytrapped and shot at along with you guys.
Besides, we’re closer to Iraq then the US is, geographically.
We didn’t take part in the invasion in Iraq, unlike the UK and australia did. The Dutch argument (and the main argument in the heated debate that divided the Dutch pro and con in the war) centered around it being an US mission, not an UN mission. But we did supply troops and warships after the invasion, and we were one of the later countries to withdraw our troops (in 2005). There have been Dutch casualties in Iraq.
In hindsight: was the US’ Iraq invasion a positive thing ?
Not just no, but hell no.
Then again, it wasn’t much a positive thing in foresight, or even just sight either. It was a fairly consistent war in its terribleness, all things considered.
I guess some rich dudes got cheap oil contracts, and other rich dudes got expensive contracts to protect them, and that’s a win for them ?
And those hollanders died for a lie. In a country that will not be ‘peacefull’ for decades.
The whole thing was a sham, everybody lost.
JPB en kornuiten zijn nare boefjes die electoraal hebben gekregen wat ze verdienen.
(our premier at the time got his well-deserved reward: his party got decimated to the point of irrelevance)
[QUOTE=Kobal2]
I guess some rich dudes got cheap oil contracts, and other rich dudes got expensive contracts to protect them, and that’s a win for them ?
[/QUOTE]
And Saddam and a bunch of his not so merry men got the noose , or otherwise were shuffled off this mortal coil, so it was probably a wash.
-XT
I don’t either. That’s what I was disagreeing with the OP about-- he made the comparison.
The justifications for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 were incorrect and we shouldn’t have invaded for those reasons.
As for the overall net positive of the liberation of Iraq, I’d say the jury is still out.
You mean that the dead Americans might come back to life?
No, the jury is not out. It was not worth the life of one American. We were not invited in. We were not at risk of attack. It was a complete cluster fuck when we did go in. None of that is going to change.
The fact we were still fighting in Afghanistan at the time we started the pointless war in Iraq is something that hasn’t been mentioned too much in this thread. In late 2002 and early 2003, we weren’t even close to finishing the job we started in Afghanistan but we still decided to divert money, resources, and attention from that war to go fight in Iraq. As a result, with our efforts in Afghanistan hampered, the Taliban was able to revive, and the conflict became even more complicated and difficult.
A positive thing? Sure. Gas prices are now ridiculously low, oil is abundant, Iraq is a thriving, vibrant democracy living in peace internally and with its neighbors, and everyone is happy. What’s not to like?
:mad: May no one state the case that way ever again.
Iraqi lives are worth no less, y’know.
Hence the argument by some that Hussein would have killed more people if he had remained dictator.
Added to all the errors, that had been predicted well before the invasion, was also the fact that to put the boots on the ground, lacking in quantity as they were, resources had to be taken away from Afghanistan, and this has impacted extremely badly upon the campaign there.
When you add up the casualties, put some in from the barely competant war in Afghanistan.
Also, when doing the ‘life account’ don’t forget the shortened lifespans, harm cuased by damaged infrastructure and lack of access to clean water and effluent treatment, increased rate of infant mortality.
When these are included we get some very large numbers.
Add to this, the incredible cost of the whole thing, and think about what is going on in the world of high finance. I can’t help but think we maybe could have used that money to support the world economy.
The cost to national reputations is beyond price.
I’ll state it again and again and again. It was not worth one American life.
I never said otherwise. The Iraqis can decide if it was worth any of their lives.