# "In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/1 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")
A couple of weeks ago, I started a [thread claiming that conditions in Iraq weren’t as bad as the press were representing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187812&highlight=mark). It was based on a column by Mark Steyn, who had spent two weeks driving around the country on his own. Steyn’s POV was disparaged by several posters. E.g., **Collounsbury** > [@](#): > > I trust what I hear from my sources and from non-Telegraph journos more than this one single columist. When I say my sources, I mean folks who’ve been in on the ground and around… > > He’s earned your “trust” – I believe faith is the better word, but then there’s no arguing with the true believer… . > > Well, I see little point in continuing this with you, it’s rather like trying to nail jello to the wall. Well, the New York Times today ran a [column concurring in Steyn’s observations](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/13/opinion/13WARD.html). > [@](#): > > …Iraq is widely depicted as a nation in chaos, with armed gangs dominating Baghdad’s streets amid a widespread breakdown of public services. Having returned from Iraq two weeks ago, I believe this picture is distorted. In fact, we may soon look back at the postwar looting as only a bump in a long road. > > Before the war, those of us planning for post-conflict Iraq worried about these possibilities: up to one million refugees, widespread food shortages, epidemics, acute homelessness, a shutdown of the oil industry and general lawlessness. > > In the end, only the last became reality… > > Still, Iraq is in most respects further along the road to recovery than we could have expected before the war. All major public hospitals in Baghdad are again operating. Sixty percent of Iraq’s schools are open. Nationwide distribution of food supplies has resumed. Despite some damage to the oil wells, petroleum production exceeds domestic needs, and exports should begin again soon. More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war. BTW some posters elsewhere have blamed the war for shortages of electric power. In fact, Saddam’s government had already screwed up electric power distribution before the war. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/2 "2003-06-14T14:21:57Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s one set of “experts” about the post-war situation in both Iraq and Afghanistan about whom I’ve seen very little comment; and yet I personally respect their opinions more than all of the opinions of the “world affairs experts.”… > > That group is the “refugees.” All the reports I’ve seen have said that vast numbers of Afghans have been moving back into Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban, and also that the flow of “refugees” has been INTO Iraq rather than out of it… > > I’m not by this trying to excuse any errors that the U.S. may have made, but I think that the opinion of the former refugees is the most valuable one available as to the relative change in the situations. Those people both understand the situation at the level of the individual citizen far better than any “distant expert,” and they are validating their opinions with their LIVES. [http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2003\_06\_08\_oxblog\_archive.html#105555412647114233](http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2003_06_08_oxblog_archive.html#105555412647114233) ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/3 "2003-06-14T14:31:45Z")
[Serious offer] Would you like a LiveJournal code? I have one that you could have. [/Serious offer] ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/4 "2003-06-14T14:32:49Z")
What the fuck is wrong with you, **december**? Crap posted on a message board, or crap contained in op-ed pieces is still just crap. What you’ve done in this thread is said: 1. I posted some crap on a message board. 2. Someone contributed similar crap to a newspaper. 3. Someone else posted the same crap somewhere else. 4. See? I was right! Opinion does not equal fact. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/5 "2003-06-14T14:36:10Z")
Somewhat off topic … The Onion [reports](http://www.theonion.com/onion3922/gen_tommy_franks_quits.html) that … “It just got to be so big,” Franks said. “You had these massive campaigns, with soldiers and generals and tech crews and medical staffs and reporters and maintenance engineers and all these other people. It was such an elaborate production. I guess I just felt like, somewhere along the way, we got away from what it was all about. We forgot the thing we all got into it for in the first place: the killing.” It’s nice to know people still know how to get back to the basics! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/6 "2003-06-14T14:51:59Z")
… and in what way does any of this justify the war itself ? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/7 "2003-06-14T15:02:27Z")
I see your blog and raise you [one blog](http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/). > [@](#): > > American civil administration in Iraq is having a shortage of Bright ideas. I keep wondering what happened to the months of ?preparation? for a ?post-saddam? Iraq. What happened to all these 100-page reports, where is that Dick Cheney report? Why is every single issue treated like they have never thought it would come up? What?s with the juggling of people and ideas about how to form that ?interim government?? Why does it feel like they are using the [lets-try-this-lets-try-that] strategy? Trial and error on a whole country? > The various bodies that have been installed here don?t seem to have much coordination between them. We all need to feel that big sure and confident strides forward are being taken; it is not like this at all. And how about stopping empty pointless gestures and focusing on things that are real problems? Can anyone tell me what the return of children to schools really means? Other than it makes nice 6 o?clock news footage. > Schools have been looted; there are schools that have cluster bombs thrown in them when fedayeen were still there, no one bothered to clean that mess up before issuing the call on [Information Radio] that all students should go back to schools. How about clearing the mess created by the sudden disappearing of the ration distribution centers? How about getting the Hospitals back in shape? How about making it safe to walk in the street? By the way, I acknowledge that this doesn’t prove anything either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/8 "2003-06-14T16:01:05Z")
Fuck this **December** bashing. He did put forward the following facts that interest me a great deal > [@](#): > > All major public hospitals in Baghdad are again operating. Sixty percent of Iraq’s schools are open. Nationwide distribution of food supplies has resumed. Despite some damage to the oil wells, petroleum production exceeds domestic needs, and exports should begin again soon. More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war. Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/9 "2003-06-14T16:08:09Z")
[Of course, the people who are actually in charge of security and reconstruction do not seem to see the situation through such rosy glasses.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552510#post3552510) [Even issuing explicit warnings.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552970#post3552970) ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/10 "2003-06-14T16:10:39Z")
This knock 'em on their ass and then let them pick themselves up by their own bootstraps theory is really starting to chap my ass. I’ll give Rumsfeld and his ilk credit for knowing one elusive truth: armed forces make shitty administrators. But if you’re going to bullshit your way into a war in an already impoverished place, for shit’s sake _bring some people with you who know how to rebuild a country_. Fucking Halliburton is getting paid more money than God by the feds–are you telling me they can’t fix and extend a power grid? I’m serious about this, **december** : your constant cheerleading in the face of demonstrable deceit and incompetence does your side no credit whatever. When your guys are so arrogant as to [publish their plan for world domination](http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/secstrat.htm) and then [ignore their own chapter on economic development](http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/secstrat2.htm#nss6), someone’s dropping the damned ball. You should be devoting your considerable time and effort into using your voice and persistence to _improve_ this administration so that they can at least pursue their evil plans with a degree of competence. These idiots are falling off the proverbial Segway. You should be spotting your president instead of calling it interpretive dance. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/11 "2003-06-14T16:14:28Z")
december, you are totally immune to reason. Whether things are better or worse in Iraq does not change the fact that the USA, without a valid justification, invaded a country against all principles of international law. No matter what happens later the fact that the USA violated international law is not going to change. The fact is that the USA invaded a country and killed several thousand civilians in the process for no good reason and caused great damage to international order. If the USA was so bent on improving the lot of the Iraqis, it should have worked towards that within the framework of the international community as represented by the UN. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/12 "2003-06-14T16:52:55Z")
**December’s** OP was, and I’ll quote, “conditions in Iraq weren’t as bad as the press were representing”, which seems like a valid topic for discussion to me. So what do we get for replies: > [@](#): > > …and in what way does any of this justify the war itself? and > [@](#): > > Whether things are better or worse in Iraq does not change the fact thate the USA, without a valid justification, invaded a country against all prinicples of international law None of which has anything to do with the OP. He didn’t claim the war was justified, only that conditions in Iraq might not be as bad as reported. These replies, along with the live journal /Onion/blog jabs are just mindless December bashing. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/13 "2003-06-14T17:08:31Z")
His claims that conditions in Iraq are “not as bad as reported” have been thoroughly refuted already. Condition ins Iraq are what they are and, of course, they may be better than some report and worse than others report. The fact is december is posting in order to somehow justify the invasion and the invasion cannot be justified by how good things are. Especially to the thousands who were killed or maimed for life. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/14 "2003-06-14T17:09:23Z")
**milroyj** : My offer of a LiveJournal code was a serious offer. I happen to think that he’d like LJ. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/15 "2003-06-14T17:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **The fact is december is posting in order to somehow justify the invasion** And you know this how? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/16 "2003-06-14T17:39:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > And you know this how? Because, you see, I _know_ december and he has tried to justify the invasion is every possible and many impossible ways. But, if not that, pray tell, what do you think is his motivation? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/17 "2003-06-14T18:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > And you know this how? Read his string of posts on the justification for attacking Iraq, from all the pre-war bluster, the Hans Blix inspections, the war itself and then the lack of WMD, where **December** has tried time after time to justify this war based upon the reasons the US administration gave. After all his caveats, exceptions, changes of argument, distortions, justifications, and his’ well they would have had them in years to come’ type points, I just cannnot for the life of me see how this is not part of his/her campaign to justify the US led attack on a sovereign nation without the express approval of all the UNSC. Now that the argument about WMD has been seen to be what it is, total fabrication, this is the next nearest justification for remaining in Iraq. Well they are better off under US occupation than under Saddam Hussain, appears to be the subtext. That may even be true, but it still will not change the fact that the US has illegally and aggressively invaded another nation that posed no threat whatsoever to it or its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/18 "2003-06-14T19:12:13Z")
My. Fucking. God. Have you ever spoken to anyone in Iraq/Baghdad? I do, daily. Do you ever watch news channels from this part of the world, or read neutral websites such as the BBC? I do, daily. You have not got a FUCKING CLUE what is going on in Iraq yet you wish to believe it is fairyland to suit your own warped, brainwashed, bigoted agenda. I really wish I could have our Baghdad correspondent Saad contact you and talk some fucking sense into you. Only he can’t, because the very few precious times his satellite phone is working he needs to call us or his family. And because it is so fucking dangerous he has to get home to his house before dark, when Americans are getting up. He can’t even do a live in our programme because the SNG team won’t work after dark, so he has to pre-record. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/19 "2003-06-14T19:44:14Z")
**Istara** , could you expand further on your position? I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, implying lack of credibility, far from it. You seem to be in an extraordinary position as regards special insight and information, and I, for one, would be eager to hear more. I hope you have the leisure and the inclination to comply. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/20 "2003-06-14T20:12:34Z")
The condition of Iraq was bad before the invasion, and it is bad now. The degree of negativity is really not important, in my opinion- the simple fact is that there are problems. No one, that I have ever seen, has said that the Iraqi’s were better off oppressed by Saddam. The reality that he was an evil tyrant has never been disputed by anyone on these boards. However, attempting to use a Machiavellian argument does not change the reality of the past. The only thing that I find important is that one of the revisionist reasons we went to war in the first place was to better the lives of the Iraqi people. All the talk about Democracy and freedom from oppression. I hear about terrible infrastructural problems now, just like I did before. But I also hear about the censorship of the press under the U.S. forces (for security reasons, but nonetheless censorship). I guarantee, if the attacks against U.S. personnel continue, you will see more draconic control measures (to protect our troops which I sure hope they do now that we are committed to this utter travesty) and things will not improve. If our government is willing to pass the Patriot Act here in America to subvert our freedoms, I cannot imagine what they will be willing to do to undermine freedom and democracy in Iraq. But, no matter what, why do people keep on feeding December’s posts? I had high hopes earlier when I saw no replies, but they diminished quickly. Oh crud, I just bumped the post. I guess I have falling into the trap as well. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=2)