# "In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/181 "2003-06-19T02:27:56Z")
I’m also Superman. Did I mention that? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/182 "2003-06-19T02:50:24Z")
> [@](#): > > A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. And, as was noted then, he spent all of his time out in the western region where there had not been any fighting (and where there are not many people) until he finally arrived at the outskirts of Baghdad (from the “peaceful” side) , at which point he fled north without ever entering the city of going down to Basra where the troubles are reported. It was as if he spent two weeks hanging out on New York State Route 17, turned around at Yonkers, and announced he had proven that the Bronx was a safe place for a stroll. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/183 "2003-06-19T03:22:46Z")
Poor old **december** … a man who suffers from “sillyus manipulatus carborundum”… latin for grating us with silly manipulation… It’s as though **december** is paid by the State Department to take selective, questionable facts and really 'em give the old spit and polish treatment and then trumpet said heralds as the real truth, the real, REAL TRUTH. However, the cynic in me argues thus… **december** is actually paid by the owners of the Straight Dope Messageboard to regularly manipulate the truth so that we, in turn, are tested in our commitment to fighting ignorance. I have to say… he does a stand up job… no questions about that at all. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/184 "2003-06-19T03:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **It’s as though december is paid by the State Department to take selective, questionable facts and really 'em give the old spit and polish treatment and then trumpet said heralds as the real truth, the real, REAL TRUTH.** Question for ya, **Boo Boo**. I see **december** has been registered since Dec 1999. If he really is a State Dept lackey towing the Bush Administration line, who was paying him before Jan 20, 2001? Maddie Albright? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/185 "2003-06-19T05:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > And, as was noted then, he spent all of his time out in the western region where there had not been any fighting (and where there are not many people) until he finally arrived at the outskirts of Baghdad (from the “peaceful” side) , at which point he fled north without ever entering the city of going down to Basra where the troubles are reported. \*\* That’s only partially correct. Among the areas he visited was Tikrit, Saddam’s home base, where much of the trouble was. His tour covered much of the country, including, as you point out, the outskirts of Baghdad. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/186 "2003-06-19T06:55:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > I see **december** has been registered since Dec 1999. If he really is a State Dept lackey towing the Bush Administration line, who was paying him before Jan 20, 2001? Maddie Albright? 😉 Richard Mellon Scaife, I’d wager – after all, Ken Starr was done with his witchhunt on Bill and Hillary Clinton, so those funds could just be diverted to **december** instead. Sure would explain how the guy gets by without a job, giving him lots of free time to post to the SDMB… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/187 "2003-06-19T17:34:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Among the areas he visited was Tikrit, Saddam’s home base, where much of the trouble was. Mixture of fact and falsehood. Tikrit was Hussein’s home town and there is still sympathy for him there (as yesterday’s captured aide indicates), but Tikrit never saw the looting that Baghdad saw and has not been the site of the _general_ resistance found in Baghdad and Basra. All the incidents around Tikrit (few as they are) have focused exclusively on the U.S. military. Steyn was still lying and you are still defending him with made up answers. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/188 "2003-06-20T02:28:33Z")
[Iraqis see U.S. troops as necessary evil - poll](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19238056.htm) > [@](#): > > According to Iraq’s first opinion poll, released on Thursday, around 73 percent of Baghdad residents say U.S. troops have failed to bring security to their troubled city. However, only 17 percent of respondents said U.S.-led forces should quit Iraq forthwith. Of course, God only knows what opinion polls mean under these conditions. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/189 "2003-06-20T08:10:35Z")
So, how long before **december** starts tossing out “83% of all Iraqis want the US forces to stay” as a reference? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/190 "2003-06-20T12:07:37Z")
They _have_ to stay, and thats the worst of it. If we were to leave, the situation would rapidly turn into election by Darwinism and God only knows what the result would be, but the process would be bloody, of that we can be assured. Count Iraqula has fastened himself upon our collective jugular. Not only can we not bring home our troops now, we will almost certainly have to reinforce the ones already there, and reinforce them massively. The Bushistas are already busily spinning this as an extension of hositilities, under the rather silly excuse that we are under assault by Saddam “loyalists” (who are, presumably, quite exhausted after thier extended bout of dancing in the streets and flinging flowers at us.) How long until our losses from “peacekeeping” exceed our losses from the actual “liberation”? ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/191 "2003-06-20T12:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*\*\*december, what say ye? \*\* A month ago, columnist Mark Steyn spent two weeks driving around Iraq on his own, with no bodyguards. Sounds like Baroness Amos simply isn’t as brave as Steyn. Seriously, there’s no doubt that there’s a dangerous security situation in Iraq right now. Americans seem to be attacked on almost a daily basis. This is something our troops will have to deal with. It’s a real problem – one of many. But, it’s separate from the OP. I didn’t mean to say that things were perfect in Iraq. I said that some allegations were exaggerated, like the stories about widespread famine and large numbers of people unable to get hospital care. \*\* [/QUOTE] Yeah things are going just great: > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, June 19 – Facing daily assaults from a well-armed resistance, U.S. troops in volatile central Iraq say they are growing frustrated and disillusioned with their role as postwar peacekeepers. > > In conversations in a half-dozen towns across central Iraq, soldiers complained that they have been insufficiently equipped for peacekeeping and too thinly deployed in areas where they are under attack from fighters evidently loyal to deposed president Saddam Hussein. Others questioned whether the armed opposition to the U.S. presence in Iraq may be deeper and more organized than military commanders have acknowledged. > > “What are we getting into here?” asked a sergeant with the U.S. Army’s 4th Infantry Division who is stationed near Baqubah, a city 30 miles northeast of Baghdad. “The war is supposed to be over, but every day we hear of another soldier getting killed. Is it worth it? Saddam isn’t in power anymore. The locals want us to leave. Why are we still here?” [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14492-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop\_tb](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14492-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb) And for the **december** apologists-- enough. Its getting fricken creepy. **december** is a big boy and can speak for himself. The “pat **december** on the head, he made a nice post” request is absurd and demeaning to **december**. Are you claiming he is such a bad poster that he need to be reinforced like a puppy when he does something good? Are you going to follow him around now and personally rate all of his posts and demand praise for him for each post which passes your personal muster? **december** does post on other issues you know? Just the other day he had a nice OP mocking a certain self-important commentator. Do you want to run over to that thread and hold up an applause sign too? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/192 "2003-06-20T12:51:22Z")
A few posters had asked about losses and the ration of war to post war. > [@](#): > > The death of a U.S. soldier yesterday near Baghdad brought to nine the number of troops killed in Iraq this month in a string of sporadic rocket and sniper attacks. Fifty-four Americans have died in accidents or military action since President Bush declared the war ended on May 1, equal to more than one-third of the 139 wartime deaths. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop\_tb](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb) ☹ ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/193 "2003-06-20T12:54:39Z")
_elf6c_, it’s normal for soldiers to gripe. Frankly, I don’t blame them; it’s a tough life. The fact that some anonymous Seargant is grousing isn’t newsworthy. Your cite merely shows the media bias du jour. I am very upset at the continuing attacks against our soldiers, as is the Seargant. OTOH he’s wrong about Iraqis wanting us to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/194 "2003-06-20T13:03:42Z")
To summarize: Some Iraqis are welcoming the troops with praise and thanks. Some Iraqis are still shooting at the US and British troops. Some Iraqis are grateful that Saddam Hussein has been removed from power. Some Iraqis aren’t. Some Iraqis want us to leave now. Some Iraqis would prefer that we weren’t there, but recognize that a continued military presence is necessary for the time being. Some Iraqis can’t wait to set up their own McDonalds franchises. Most Iraqis wish things hadn’t come to this. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/195 "2003-06-20T13:25:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*_elf6c_, it’s normal for soldiers to gripe. Frankly, I don’t blame them; it’s a tough life. The fact that some anonymous Seargant is grousing isn’t newsworthy. Your cite merely shows the media bias du jour. > > I am very upset at the continuing attacks against our soldiers, as is the Seargant. OTOH he’s wrong about Iraqis wanting us to leave. \*\* In that I fully agree with you **december** - griping is part of enlisted life. Like cursing, it is a vital part of not going crazy (at least during my 4 years of service- maybe its different now). However, seeing that person is on the ground there, and you are not, I place alot more weight in their analysis of the situation then yours. Failure to listen to the troops on the ground is a classic political failure and the way to lose a war- one mistake Bush claimed he would not make. BTW, the Congress and the Bush Administration seems a bit worried as well. > [@](#): > > Yet senior aides and members of Congress are talking warily of the dangers ahead, as well as the potential political and diplomatic fallout, amid evidence that Iraqi renegades are determined to fight. Indeed, the commanding general of the U.S. Army’s 4th Infantry Division charged this week that anti-American forces are paying Iraqis to kill troops. The perils are significant. It has become clear that U.S. troops will form the majority of the international force in Iraq for many months. Some voices on Capitol Hill, describing the casualties and the extent of the armed Iraqi opposition, have begun to argue that the Bush administration must send more troops or recruit others. > > . . . > > “There are significant hostile forces,” Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) told a National Press Club audience yesterday. “There are forces we can’t see. There are competitions between power groups vying for power. There’s retribution, there’s retaliation. And I don’t think we do have enough manpower in there.” [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop\_tb](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb) Unfortunately now that we are there we have to stay until the job is finished, so we do not have a repeat of the Afganistan situation. And **december** - ease off the “media bias” bullshit-- m’kay. It makes you looks silly and hypocritical. The quote was hard facts and a direct fucking quote from someone who knows what they are talking about on the ground there- hard to “bias” that. Unlike you, I only Cite to large well respected news organizations. No Blogs, Op-Eds, or Rush Limbaugh sites. Clean up your own Cites before crying “media bias”. I know its uncomfortable to have your cherished beliefs refuted with facts and quotes from well respected sources, but do try to not lapse into trite cliches. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/196 "2003-06-20T16:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Ah that’s your opinion, and insofar as I don’t see you have experience or exposure to humanitarian orgs, I’ll just say that you are worth less than the crud in my amigos toes who do the work. Worthless piece of posturing shit. > > Te rest is just your typical posturing. I note you’ve not supported a single assertion to date with anything approaching facts. \*\* Oh come on, it’s not december’s fault that all those humanitarian organizations are made up of liberal, hippie commies. Geez. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/197 "2003-06-20T17:21:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\*Unlike you, I only Cite to large well respected news organizations. No Blogs, Op-Eds, or Rush Limbaugh sites. Clean up your own Cites before crying “media bias”. I know its uncomfortable to have your cherished beliefs refuted with facts and quotes from well respected sources, but do try to not lapse into trite cliches. \*\* Oh, but december does cite large, well esablished news organizations such as the _Washington Post_. However, when he does he tends to ignore the parts that don’t agree with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=9)