# "In Iraq, Things Really Aren't That Bad" - I told you so! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793 "2003-06-14T13:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/21 "2003-06-14T20:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*[Of course, the people who are actually in charge of security and reconstruction do not seem to see the situation through such rosy glasses.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552510#post3552510) [Even issuing explicit warnings.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3552970#post3552970) \*\* Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam’s incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we’re coping with today are actually of long standing. > [@](#): > > It appears clear Iraqi infrastructure across the board is in worse shape than expected. First, on a human level present estimates on literacy rates show a drop from roughly 70 percent in 1980 to roughly 55 percent… Real GDP estimates reflect a similar magnitude of decrease, dropping from roughly $50-60 billion to $25-35 billion. Per capita GDP that had been in the range of $4,500 in 1980 is now around $1,000-1,200 or about the same level as Iran…It should be recalled that…agricultural production had collapsed, as had other economic activity… > > Major repair and upgrade work is required to restore Iraq’s deteriorated oil sector infrastructure to pre-1991 production levels and to attain world-class safety standards. For over 20 years, Iraqi oil sector equipment has been poorly maintained. Rusted, outdated facilities have been operated through various improvised means. > > On the bright side, potentially crippling damage and sabotage to the sector during the war was avoided and the nine oil well fires in southern Iraq have been extinguished. The Army Corps of > Engineers has been assigned by the Defense Department to > undertake oil sector rehabilitation…The Corps’ stated objective is to “have fires suppressed, environmental cleanup accomplished, oil production levels restored, if required, and our personnel safely redeployed back home.” The Coalition has reaffirmed its commitment to protect Iraq’s natural resources as the patrimony of the people of Iraq, which should be used only for their benefit. > > …Water and sewage treatment plants have deteriorated as a result of lack of maintenance, spare parts, war, and dwindling numbers of professional operating personnel. Over 90 percent of the urban population is thought to have access to water, but quantities per capita are insufficient. Moreover, in many neighborhoods, leaking pipes has contaminated potable water networks. Less than half the rural population has direct access to piped potable water. Only half of the country’s sewage treatment plants are operational. In Baghdad, deteriorating sewage treatment installations are unable to handle an increased flow caused by population growth. As a consequence, nearly 500,000 tons of raw or partially treated sewage are discharged daily into the rivers. This has resulted in a dramatic increase in the incidence of water-borne diseases, such as cholera, typhoid, amoebic dysentery, and diarrhea. Projects aimed at improving Iraq’s irrigation systems and potable water and wastewater treatment facilities are included within the potential scope of USAID’s Capital Construction contract. Two conclusions: 1. Although there are still lots and lots of challenges, things are now improving. The glass is half full, not half empty. That’s why more people are returning to Iraq than are leaving. 2. Most of the material shortages should be blamed on Saddam, not to the war. Had the war not occurred, these conditions would still be deteriorating, rather than being fixed. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/22 "2003-06-14T21:02:44Z")
I don’t recall a war cry to improve bridges, hospitals and the like. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/23 "2003-06-14T21:21:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam’s incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we’re coping with today are actually of long standing. Two conclusions: > > 1. Although there are still lots and lots of challenges, things are now improving. The glass is half full, not half empty. That’s why more people are returning to Iraq than are leaving. > > 2. Most of the material shortages should be blamed on Saddam, not to the war. Had the war not occurred, these conditions would still be deteriorating, rather than being fixed. \*\* One conclusion: You’re not biased. You’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/24 "2003-06-14T21:57:20Z")
From the op ed piece: > [@](#): > > _George Ward, former coordinator for humanitarian assistance in the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq, is head of the training program at the United States Institute of Peace._ Whatever happened to Wolowitz/Garner/Ward’s pentagon based Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq ? It shows up on [google](http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=%22Office+of+Reconstruction+and+Humanitarian+Assistance+for+Iraq%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off), but is entirely absent from recent news items. Did everyone get shitcanned when Bremer came in to [turn things around](http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/world/6057650.htm) ? How much weight should we give to the opinions of a man who went from a failed stint managing humanitarian aid in Iraq, to a position at an organization with an [antisemitic bias](http://www.usip.org/pubs/peaceworks/pwks47.html) ? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/25 "2003-06-14T22:31:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Your first cite indicates that, aside from Saddam’s incredible cruelty, material conditions in Iraq had deteriorated under his reign. Many of the problems we’re coping with today are actually of long standing. And? You are weaseling. Your OP was an attempt to bolster your earlier post that Iraq was not that bad off. Now you are shifting the discussion to the point that after canning its first picked manager, the Coalition Forces are finally beginning to get a handle on helping Iraq recover. This does nothing to support your contention in either thread that things are not bad to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/26 "2003-06-14T22:58:40Z")
How about we all pass the hat around to buy **december** a couple of months in Bagdhad. When he comes back he may be a little wiser. I know I’d chip in 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/27 "2003-06-14T23:15:11Z")
The utter shit-eating grins almost actually visible (thank GOD there’s no applicable smily…) in the Title (alone) of this thread, compared to the subject matter, are almost making me literally sick to my stomach. And I watch surgery for fun. I read the TMI thread because I found it interesting, and little (if anything) grossed me out. But this … this shit is absolutely fucking disgusting. I do not believe that someone with any measure of self-respect could post such utter garbage. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. I know you won’t be, since you couldn’t find fault in yourself if your pathetic life depended on it, but you are one sick fuck. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/28 "2003-06-14T23:21:12Z")
What **iampunha** said…fucking disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/29 "2003-06-14T23:36:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > **Crap posted on a message board, or crap contained in op-ed pieces is still just crap.** I am shocked, _shocked_, at your suggestion that the New York Times would print anything that was less than 100% truthful. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/30 "2003-06-14T23:37:01Z")
**elucidator** - I work for a TV station in the Middle East, part of an Arab broadcasting organisation. We get to see all Reuters and APTN stuff, as well as material from our own correspondents. Also all the usual print wires. Plus I work with a good dozen Iraqis, nearly all of whom have friends and family back in Iraq, mainly Baghdad, with whom they’re in pretty intermittent contact with. Communications are still a nightmare. NOTHING suggests the situation there is anything like the fuckarse OP tries to suggest “isn’t really that bad”. It IS really bad, and in some areas detiorating. It just sickens me that he tries to gloss over the genuine suffering and lack of safety of a nation of people, to prove some (unproveable, because he’s WRONG) political point. It’s immoral. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/31 "2003-06-14T23:47:35Z")
**december**. As **Demostylus** said, an op-ed piece does not truth make. And, in the case of the one you cited, it’s written by George Ward, from the conservative dominated, inaptly named _United States Institute for International Peace_. You proudly trumpet that the piece appears in the NYTIMES, and it supports your _Mark Steyn_ column from two weeks ago. It’s an op-ed piece. Funny how you criticize the _NY Times_ for op-ed pieces that don’t support your warped sense of what is or isn’t true in life. But you cite them positively when they publish a view that supports your version of the truth. Disgusting, and tiring. Do you not have any pride? ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/32 "2003-06-14T23:52:12Z")
**istara** ’s posts seem, to me, to be the most valuable in this thread, as someone who’s had direct experience with the region in question. I also know someone who lives there, and he’s described similar difficulties. They put the lie to **december** ’s blog-spotting OP pretty quickly, in my view. **december** , I note that you didn’t respond to **istara** ’s account earlier. In fact, you flat-out ignored it. Care to attempt a cogent response to it now? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/33 "2003-06-15T00:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*…Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts? \*\* Didn’t think so:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/34 "2003-06-15T00:14:44Z")
Okay, so can I count on donations from **iampunha, leander** and **Istara**? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/35 "2003-06-15T00:25:52Z")
Meanwhile, the number of civilian deaths in Iraq has surpassed the number of civilians killed in the destruction of the WTC. According to the AP, the Iraqi civilian death toll stands at 3, 240. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/36 "2003-06-15T00:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*I really wish I could have our Baghdad correspondent Saad contact you and talk some fucking sense into you. Only he can’t, because the very few precious times his satellite phone is working he needs to call us or his family. And because it is so fucking dangerous he has to get home to his house before dark, when Americans are getting up. He can’t even do a live in our programme because the SNG team won’t work after dark, so he has to pre-record… > > Communications are still a nightmare. > > NOTHING suggests the situation there is anything like the fuckarse OP tries to suggest “isn’t really that bad”. It IS really bad, and in some areas detiorating. It just sickens me that he tries to gloss over the genuine suffering and lack of safety of a nation of people, to prove some (unproveable, because he’s WRONG) political point. \*\* Stripping out the insults, you say that in Baghdad, the streets are unsafe and the satellite phone is usually not working. You also say there is genuine suffering, of an unspecified nature. _I accept everything you say._ However, I claimed that things in Iraq were not as bad as was being rerported. Do you know what has been reported here? A couple of weeks ago I saw articles talking about widespread starvation. I saw articles claiming that hospitals were overcrowded and they didn’t have the necessary medical supplies. I saw articles claiming that the oil infrastructure was such a shambles that it would be out of commission for a long time. I saw articles predicting that the US occupation would be a total failure, because the Iraqi people would never accept it. These things weren’t happening and they didn’t happen. I believe that there is genuine suffering and lack of safety. I don’t mean to minimize what the Iraqi people are going through. However, the hospitals never ran out of medicine and supplies, and there never was widespread starvation. And, enough oil is already being pumped so that some is available for export, and the amount is increasing. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/37 "2003-06-15T00:49:15Z")
Not to push your buttons or anything, but that civilian toll is remarkably LOW, not high, for an invasion and conquering of an entire nation (especially one as big as Iraq). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/38 "2003-06-15T00:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace > …Now that certainly suggests that the US led administration in Iraq is doing an admirable job. Anyone care to challenge these facts? With facts? > \* > \*\*Didn’t think so:rolleyes: \*\* **grieny**. You are assuming that the “facts” that december posted from the op-ed piece are truth. They probably are. But it should be up to you to support them with “facts.” Just try one. Find another cite, preferrably from a neutral source, that supports the assertion that > [@](#): > > More Iraqis are receiving electric power than before the war. Again, I’m not saying that it’s true or false. It should be easy to find support for the statement, since the OP and the OP-ED writer say it’s true. Are you up to it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/39 "2003-06-15T01:57:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > **grieny**. You are assuming that the “facts” that december posted from the op-ed piece are truth. They probably are. But it should be up to you to support them with “facts.” Why? I never took a position on the veracity on Steyn’s eye witness accounts. I do trust the New York Times in light of recent embarassments far more than \*\* Istara’s\*\* al-Jazeera. But then if I was about to attack the integrity of someone else, particularly a fellow member of this community, then I better have some evidence to back it up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793/40 "2003-06-15T02:11:02Z")
Surprisingly, I’m with Grieny. On a message board devoted solely to Fighting Ignorance, I’m utterly appalled to see people using nothing but ad hominem attacks against someone they disagree with, even if that person does have a… “reputation”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-iraq-things-really-arent-that-bad-i-told-you-so/181793.md?page=3)